RTAS in Logic?

I mean MOTU is advertising that they now support RTAS. Refer to my link in the last post.

I am a Logic TDM user since 1996, and realize that of course TDM support exists. But my reason for wanting RTAS support is that there are many plugins that only come in that format, or that I'd like to have, for instance, Guitar Rig on my TDM tracks as I'm tracking guitar parts. It's all about options.

I wouldn't say RTAS isn't a "pro" format because many professionals use it, making it by definition a pro option, as are all the other plugin formats. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Logic TDM got so bad that I abandoned it for a long time, but recently I've gotten back into it since 8.02 and OS 10.5.4 seem to be pretty stable now.

MOTU says they now support "use of RTAS plug-ins under DAE on post-TDM inserts" whatever that means. I would just be glad to use an RTAS plug at all. Digi doesn't lose anything by allowing 3rd party DAW's to use RTAS because you have to buy the latest version of Pro Tools software to keep up anyway.

It's in the Sample Editor. All processing there is destructive although you are given an option to make a copy of your file before you futz with it.

But I thought we were talking about RTAS.

Are there none with thoughts on the subject?

I agree that Logic is great. However so is Pro Tools and especially my expensive HD hardware. And I like the sound of my expensive TDM plugins.

My point is: why can MOTU support RTAS but Logic can't? Has any one used the new version of Digital Performer to see how RTAS is implemented?

This has gotten way off topic.

There are plenty of RTAS plugins that sound as good or better than AU plugins. They are just different formats, none is inherently better than the other, and many plugins come in all formats and sound exactly the same regardless of RTAS, TDM, or AU.

There are some plugs that are RTAS only, and there are users who also run PT who already have RTAS plugins. There's not much point in trying to convince anyone that wanting to run RTAS is somehow pointless or worthless.

It would be great if Logic had full TDM/DAE/RTAS support, but they don't. They could, but I'm sure it would be a huge amount of work to do right, and frankly I'm not surprised they don't want to go to the trouble.

Supposedly MOTU Performer has it:
Why can't Logic?

Yeah - but they are talking about using the DAE, not the regular DP audio engine, so it's not the same as DP being able to host RTAS plugins without anything to do with ProTools - PT's DAE is still running, so it's not the same thing at all...

Not to be argumentative, but I would say that it's the same case exactly. Logic uses DAE to serve as a front end to TDM hardware. It's within this audio engine that RTAS plugins run. Logic's native engine is then streamed into DAE via DTDM channels.

I don't know how DP brings their native engine into DAE's. Probably a similar scheme.

As they are the only ones who offer RTAS support I was hoping someone familiar with their layout could chime in.

Call me a dreamer but I'm still hoping Logic will get RTAS support eventually. But maybe Apple won't miss the group of users who care enough about this issue to jump ship over to DP.

Yes, but the OP really just wants to (as I understand it) have RTAS supported natively in Logic. Which won't happen, as is also not the case with DP, because it's a closed proprietry technology and if you think Digidesign are going to license this to a competitor - well, it's not going to happen.

They want RTAS to remain exclusive to ProTools...

Digidesign does make that available, as demonstrated by Motu. If Motu is able to do it but Logic not, I don't get how that's Digi's fault.

And yes, it requires running DAE, and it includes a number of issues and potential problems. But the format does seem to be available to third parties - Apple simply has chosen not to do it.

I don't think Apple are too bothered about directly supporting ProTools anymore, unlike back in the Emagic days where offering PT support had significant advantages - both for the end user, and the credibility of Logic...

I agree that it's not a priority for Apple.

But I don't get why you say it's not an Apple decision?

MOTU is doing it. How could they be doing it if Digi wasn't making it available?

And while Apple clearly has made gains on Adobe/Avid/Digidesign, it's not really about hardware (at this point, I suspect many users buy the PT hardware only because it's the only way to get the software). Pro Tools still has some great features that I'd kill to see in Logic. As much as I like Logic, I have to admit that some things like automation are still a mess compared to the seamless way it works in PT (even PTLE).

And yeah, some of that is personal opinion, but some of it is flat out bugs in Logic where the same functionality is rock solid in PT.

fermusic wrote:
it works with DAE
it doesn't support RTAS...

According to MOTU's website, DP 6 does support RTAS - I assume that's only on digi hardware running DAE.

the driver for be able to work with DAE TDM hardware are developed by DIGIDESIGN!!!!
If they want to cut Logic, they can do!

It seems like you don't understand how drivers work. Digi makes the drivers/DAE. They document the drivers and how other apps work with them.

If they sabotaged anything, DP wouldn't run RTAS plugins either. I'm sure they don't care about making it easy for Apple (or probably anyone else for that matter), but if Apple wanted to go to the trouble, there's nothing stopping them.

You keep insisting that Apple/Logic "can't do anything"...if that was really the case, then how is Motu/DP doing it?

Digidesign either makes it available to third parties or they don't. I don't get how you think they're somehow magically allowing DP to work but not Logic?

You can go read the UnicorNation users group and find out that it works, but not as well as folks would like. Also there is no simultaneous native engine. It's either MAS or DAE apparently, and never the twain shall meet.

I guess that running what amounts to two native engines (Logic's own and RTAS under DAE) is complicated. I can do it "manually" by running PT and Logic at the same time, and have worked that way quite a bit. But it's unwieldy and there are timing issues.

Of course, Logic also doesn't support DAE's delay compensation, so heavy mixing is really out of the question on the DAE side. I do so love tracking with no discernible latency though. Native still can't do that.

I usually pre-produce in Logic and then export everything to mix in PT, but for a lot of things I can get away with mixing in Logic. It's for this scenario that I'd like to have RTAS.

imnickb wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's impossible, but I thought I'd ask anyway...

Is there anyway to get my RTAS plugins in Logic? Logic doesn't support VST cause maybe I could wrap them to VST and use them that way... I don't know... I like logic and pro tools and don't want to have to choose...

Currently, only TDM plugins are available in Logic, when using a Digidesign TDM system.

As to why Logic does not support RTAS plugins? My educated guess is:

LICENSING issues. Apple maybe did not want to purchase the licencing for use of the Digidesign plugin format. But also, Apple ONLY supports their own AudioUnit format. No VST, No RTAS, No DP, No whatever else is out there...

Cheers

fermusic wrote:
you have DP6?
NOW?

I think you must wait...

I'm not sure what your point is, are you saying MOTU is lying and they're not really including the feature? They say they support RTAS in some form, that's more than Logic which has zero support for it at all.

That seems a bit ridiculous, I can't imagine they'd promise a feature like that unless they have it working.

fermusic wrote:
Tell me... What do you think that can do Apple with RTAS?
Is Digidesigne the only one that can make an offer about RTAS!!!!
is a digidesign choice make offer to motu and not to Apple

Apple can get the DAE software development kit and implement support for RTAS. Just like MOTU is doing. Digidesign HAS made RTAS available, I'm not sure why you're so convinced they haven't.

Or you really think that Digi has made their SDK available to Motu but refused to let Apple have it? We know that can't be true because Logic does have some TDM/DAE support, which isn't possible without digi's SDK.

it is an EVIDENCE!!!
there is no way!!!

What is an evidence? You have just spun conspiracy theories with nothing to back them up.

Logic does not need to do anything because it is in a dominant position
it is the winner of the market

Sorry, but that's nonsense. Digi has had dominant market share for years - if you really think Logic has more market share, find numbers backing that up.

when a Brand is in a dominant position the others Brands need to stipulate agreements and unions in order to avoid to loose too much!

Digidesign is in crisis...
they are losing market share
these agreements are signs of weakness

Signs of weakness? Digi has been making DAE support available to third party midi apps for probably a decade or more. They were doing it when they were absolutely crushing the rest of the market, it's nothing new.

Apple doesn't need to do any agreement = they can't do anything because RTAS support is not a problem... it is good only for the DIGI 003 owners...

Maybe this is just a language misunderstanding? They WON'T do it because they don't think it's important...that's way different than they CAN'T do it which is what you keep saying.

The success of either logic or PT is irrelevant to the question of whether or not apple could support RTAS if they wanted, it has nothing to do with the topic.

do you know the exactly ammount af Latency with Protools DAE?
it is almost the same as Logic software monitoring (CORE AUDIO) or greater.
I know... I work on Protools studios

So what is the latency on TDM? Number? Source?

There's no way to make a legit comparison without a real number.

this kind of MIX cannot be made by using PT... because it require 160 MONO tracks..

TDM goes up to 192 tracks.

RTAS is a Digidesign property...
if they want to add in Logic RTAS porting... they can do!

Nope. You just don't understand how software like this works. Adding it to logic is done by the logic programmers. Digi just makes the SDK available, whether Apple chooses to take advantage is up to apple.

Apple will be happy to add RTAS in Logic in a futire update!

Considering that they haven't supported all the available TDM features for years (support has decreased), I find that incredibly unlikely.

They could be supporting it now. They choose not to.

BUT is DIGIDESIGN the only one that can give the permission and license to use RTAS in Logic.
Apple cannot do anything about a copyrigth owned by others!

Digidesign does give permission. And they have already given permission to Logic/Apple already, as evidenced by the fact that Logic includes TDM/DAE support. Do you actually think that Digi customizes their SDK for different third parties with more features or fewer features?

So, Please, ask to Digidesign about that!

G

RTAS-support exists since years in Digital Performer; latency compensation is also supported (not in Logic´s DAE mode). Support of dual-mono TDM plugs is provided (not in Logic´s DAE mode).

I´ve switched 3 months ago to Digital Performer after working with Logic from its birthday on. I can say that this was the best decision I ever could make. Now I have a WORKING (nearly) crash-free DAE system. And after learning to work with DP I can not imagine how I ever could work without those fantastic features that DP provides.

In my opinion Logic isn´t a Pro application any more (perhaps only for those who don´t know the competition).