Question about Color requirement

tommybone wrote:
So can anyone recommend me a good 3+ buttons mouse that I can purchase for full functionality without having to "pick up a pea with one chopstick" (excellent analogy BTW 😀 )

Thank you guys for answering my questions, all are very helpful and I am planning to use Color in full effects when I get the mouse and external HD monitor.

JP is referring not to a mouse but to Tangent Devices control surfaces such as this http://www.tangentdevices.co.uk/productscp200.asp a full set of which will set you back over $20,000.00 USD. Mousing around Color's interface is slow and painful.

Yes, it seems unfortunate that so many consider the software the "be all and end all", when its not even the tip of the iceberg. Its hardly even the frost on the tip of the iceberg.

Tragic that the price of the app has been submerged into FCS2. The upshot of that is that it now enjoys ZERO commercial and professional respect (even though it is easily as capable as many) and that no one is now willing to accessorize it properly, since that multiplies its actual implementation cost far beyond what its initial acquisition would suggest. Even though providing the correct equipment complement multiplies the application far, far beyond what its price point suggests.

There are reasons for professional grade suites to use knob/ring/joyball panels. Call the #1 reason "The bottom line"....


jPo

Just wanted to chime in here to provide some perspective here.

Don't be discouraged by what JPO constantly parrots around here as far as control surfaces vs. "mousing around" in Color is concerned. He has a vested interest in discouraging as many wannabe "colorists" as possible from learning the art/craft of color correction. He's not wrong, however, regarding the night-and-day differences in grading efficiency using a proper control surface. It's quite an epiphany to be able to chase a grade in realtime, or push & pull color offsets simultaneously using the joyballs, all while keeping your eyes on the grading monitor.

But the reality is that control surfaces are ridiculously expensive, and you certainly don't need a control surface to do real, professional color-correction with Color.app. In the 15 months in which we've added Color to our post workflow, I've probably done around 40 real-world, client-supervised grading sessions with the largest advertising agencies in my state. Many of these clients have had tons of experience in "real" Da Vinci sessions. None of them have complained about the lack of speed with Color, at least when I'm operating it (in fact, I frequently get comments that I'm too fast), because all the keyboard shortcuts have been totally relegated to my muscle memory at this point.

My advice is to not sweat the fact that you can't afford a CP100. You can do real work, and learn the art of color correction using Color, a calibrated monitor, a decent mouse and the willingness to learn how to drive all aspects of the program using keyboard shortcuts. It's not as good as using a control surface, but it's not anywhere near as bad as guys like JPO pretend it is.

All the Color snobbery around here is really tiresome. There's no need for it, and it's a bit embarrassing to see the same old garde continually screaming at all the kids to get off their lawn. It's truly insulting and myopic. I can make a parallel here to VFX/compositing: As an avid fan of Shake's node-based UI, I honestly can't understand how people can tolerate setting up complex composites with layer-based tools like After Effects (even though I've used it for 15 years). I find AE to be clunky, slow and highly inorganic for such tasks. But the fact remains that people much more talented than me do use AE to produce some of the most mindblowing VFX out there.

Use the tools that work best for your personal preferences. True talent and creativity transcends tools, software and/or highly expensive joyballs.

Very well put Melorama, I agree entirely.

But the reality is that control surfaces are ridiculously expensive,

I guess that's relative, considering that a set of daVinci 8:8:8 panels used to weigh in at +$75,000.

I consider the Tangents inexpensive, in comparison.

I do take your point regarding creativity, but I disagree with your assertions about operability. Paraplegics can play the drums with their feet. I've seen it done, and they were very good at it.

I like being able to use all my appendages, thanks. But whatever works for you, good on'ya mate.

Cordially, and I do mean that in a collegial sense,

jPo

I do take your point regarding creativity, but I disagree with your assertions about operability. Paraplegics can play the drums with their feet. I've seen it done, and they were very good at it.

See, I still think your analogies are wholly incorrect.

Operating Color without a control surface is not the same thing as playing a drum kit with missing appendages. It's more like the difference between this...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QALgeZ_fWKk

...and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPrYgdvf7FQ

You continually imply that without a control surface, you can't get any "real" work done, but the truth is, a control surface is simply a luxury and personal preference that you can afford. I can understand from that perspective that using a mouse and keyboard would be beneath you, but spreading FUD among new Color users is counterproductive to the growth of the product.

This isn't the TIG mailing list. Your rants against the horrors of trying to be a colorist without a panel would be more on-topic and appropriate there. I think it's fine to evangelize the absolute joy it is to grade using a panel, but continually implying that all the people on this forum who can't afford the luxury of a good Tangent or JL Cooper panel are not professional (or at least serious colorists-in-training) is simply condescending, and misses the point of the very existence of this product, as well as the purpose of this forum.

Lord knows that I wish I could justify the expense of a set of Tangent panels to my company (or even an Eclipse, which I wasn't all that impressed by when I demo'ed it), but seeing as we're doing more than fine without them as far as our demanding client base is concerned, it's clear that one does not need a control surface in order to do great work with Color.

Let people use and discuss this app on their own terms and budget levels. Condescending to them by implying that they are lesser, "crippled" operators because they don't own a CP100 is just as annoying as people who constantly talk about how great flying in First-class is, and how they can't ever imagine flying in coach ever again.

I forgot to mention that my opinions Re: Control Surfaces may be somewhat skewed in that I work for a post-house that primarily does high-end TV commercials. I probably wouldn't be harshing on JPO as much if we were just discussing grading a feature or reels and reels worth of dailies.

Mel,

Rather than complain about JP and the "old garde" whomever they are, why don't you stick around these parts and help out? I see you on other forums lending a hand with your experience, how about here? Another knowledgeable voice would be a great benefit to the readers here as I get rather grumpy and have to leave for periods of time.

I've met and conversed with Mr. Owens and I've seen a bit of his work. I daresay he has no "vested interest" in knocking down up and coming "colorists" who want to learn a piece of software as they are of no threat to his business, that statement from you was rather harsh.

Stick around, help out and then criticize.

z.

Zebulun wrote:
Mel,

Rather than complain about JP and the "old garde" whomever they are, why don't you stick around these parts and help out?

Because honestly, Z...I don't have much time and energy these days to do so. Given the 300+ RSS feeds, forums and mailinglists I read everyday, I barely have the motivation to answer my personal email, let alone stay active posting on forums on a daily basis.

Besides, my vast history of "helping out" on dozens of forums and mailinglists over the past 13 years is very well documented. I've paid my dues in that respect. But regardless, I'm not sure how your objection to my relative low-traffic on this forum in any way relates to the underlying point to my post.

This is for the most part a "newbie forum" (by JPOs own words). As I said, it's not the TIG list, where such idealism would be more appropriate and correct. The constant zealot-like insistence that one must have a control surface in order to be considered a professional (or even productive at all) is like spending all of ones time on a newbie drumming forum, and condescendingly advising people that they can't be real, serious, efficient drummers unless they own/use a 68 piece, Neil Peart signature drumkit. It may be a debatable point, but it's clearly misguided advice given the nature of the forum.

My motivation here is not to collect little blue rectangles under my screenname. My motivation is to help when I can offer something of substance, and offer an honest, real-world perspective on things of which I have firsthand experience with (re: Color sans control surface). Because experienced guys like you and JPO are the dominant (and generally very insightful) voices on this forum, I can understand that many people would be intimidated to ask questions out of fear that they'll be jumped on for being a wannabe. My post was an (admittedly dramatic) attempt to let people like that know that it's perfectly okay if they can't afford to support their Color.app setup with "inexpensive" CP100 panels, eCinema displays and Christie projectors.

I'm sorry if my honest, passionate yet ostensibly balanced criticism ruffled your feathers so much that you missed the actual point of it. But feel free to continue passive-aggressively referring to me in other threads by incorrectly insinuating that I think everything JPO says is full of crap.

Ruffled feathers? And now your feathers appear to be rather ruffled, Mel, and are making incorrect insinuations against me. It's okay.

I asked you to help out around here because of your knowledgeable experience. It would be nice to have your voice around here and apparently you think my gruff voice needs to be balanced (mmmmmaybe!) but it's good you're too busy. Busy pays money. Little blue rectangles don't pay money, neither does banter on the FCP-L. Oh, wait, little blue rectangles on the FCP forum have led to rather well paying work, at least for me.

z.