Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

I've actually had some relief the last 2 weeks thankfully. A Canada Day, a few summer BBQs, and other ways to find a bit of rest from digital displays throughout the week can work wonders I guess! Around the March timeframe when my issues resurfaced with a vengeance, I was doing a looooot of writing on the computer. All that focusing on tiny text may have just been too much of a strain.

My issue definitely seems cumulative. During a typical work week, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday I will barely notice I have an issue at all. Around Thursday it will usually start, and then Friday is often hard to push through. Also, if I use my computer for quite a few hours in the evening after a full day of work, my eyes will literally creak the next morning when I wake up (you can hear it too!) I guess my challenge is to find ways to cut down on this cumulative strain, and find the displays that my eyes/brain/body like using the most.

I would ask the question of everybody here that is reporting an issue, and be honest: how many hours a day do you look at some sort of digital display (phone, tablet, PC, etc)? With my combination of work as a server admin and my being a techie in general even outside of work, I am usually pushing 8-10 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's quite a bit to ask of your visual system I'm sure! Although, everyone in the 21st century seems to be doing it these days, and I don't really hear of too many reporting issues like ours.

I believe everybody's issue is slightly different in its own way. Gurm, I'm quite intrigued by the results that you bring forward. The fact that some cell phones are quite tolerable to you (e.g. iPhone 4S) while so many others are not suggests that your issue is not a visual issue. You are likely holding all these phones the same viewing distance each and every time to keep the test consistent. It seems a bit farfetched that something as obscure as temporal dithering is giving you so much grief, but you never know! An important question I meant to ask you is: do you have any problems with print or books? Can you read a book or novel for hours and hours without issue? What about an Amazon Kindle as well?

I find the iPhone 5 - which I'm currently using - mostly tolerable for the few minutes I need to glance at it each day. The most I can stand reading it constantly is about 1 hour tops. One thing I'm considering as an experiment is a blue-blocking filter for it. Here's one I'm eying:

https://www.lowbluelights.com/detail.asp?id=110

I'm curious if you were to also introduce this into your experimentation how it would affect your results (if at all)

Lots of questions to answer here.

>The fact that some cell phones are quite tolerable to you (e.g. iPhone 4S) while so many others are

>not suggests that your issue is not a visual issue.

I fail to follow your logic here. It seems to me that it IS a visual issue. No cell phone ever bothered me until they started using PWM and Dithering and blue LED's. Right around 2012. I used a TON of different phones, and never had an issue.

>You are likely holding all these phones the same viewing distance each and every time to keep the test consistent.

No, actually. I'm holding them at the distance that text is clear on them. On the big screen models I turn the font up. The iPhones have to be closer since they are smaller screens.

>It seems a bit farfetched that something as obscure as temporal dithering is giving you so much grief, but you never know!

Does it? On my desktop computer I can swap my nVidia card for a Radeon and have eyestrain within minutes. The difference? Temporal dithering is on for the Radeon. But is it the dithering itself? Or some combination of dithering and LED? Hard to say, but on my shiny 60" plasma TV (which is great with Blu Ray and my XBox360) my XBox One is hard to look at - because it comes with a Radeon chip and Temporal Dithering turned on by default.

>An important question I meant to ask you is: do you have any problems with print or books?

>Can you read a book or novel for hours and hours without issue? What about an Amazon Kindle as well?

I can read books for days on end without a single issue, either with or without my glasses, with contacts in, on a cloudy day or a bright day. Never a single problem except when under a blue-ish light (like "Reveal" or LED).

Kindle... the unlit ones are no problem. The backlit ones (such as paperwhite) tend to use blue LED's and hurt.

I have definitely got multiple issues going on.

.....

.....

One interesting new development is that my new progressive glasses come with Varilux lenses and Crizal Prevencia coating. Everything on a computer or phone screen looks a little more yellow with them on, because of the amount of blue light they block. With them on, the Samsung Super AMOLED phones are much more tolerable. So I think that for sure we're all experiencing a massive blue light crush here.

I tried a couple "clear" Blue Light films and they were worthless. However, matte ones or ones that actually have a yellowish cast may very well help. I'd be curious to know.

Let me clarify what I meant by "not a visual issue", and why I asked you about books/print. I was referring to "binocular vision" for the most part. When my issue first surfaced, I was diagnosed by my lifetime optometrist as having a "convergence insufficiency & accommodative insufficency". Convergence is your ability to have both eyes team properly to give you proper binocular fusion. If you hold your finger in front of your face for instance, and slowly bring it towards your nose while trying to see only 1 finger, eventually you won't be able to hold it, and it will become 2 fingers. This would be your "near point of convergence" (NPC) score. Mine used to be way out in front of me. After doing some eye exercises with vision therapy, I was able to bring my NPC in much closer. Another key is the ability to hold this fusion comfortably for long periods of time.

If you were starting to have problems with reading books or print around the same viewing distance as a cell phone screen, then the suggestion could be made that the issue is largely with your visual system, instead of the display (i.e. reading anything hurts your eyes). With how everything is digital and electronic now, I'm willing to bet there's quite a few people that haven't read physical print for a while. That's why I wanted to ask if print was OK for you. When I saw both my lifetime optometrist and an ophthalmologist in May, both examined my eyes and concluded they were healthy, and (independently of each other) suggested that the issue is not stemming from my eyes, but likely another area (e.g. optic nerve, CNS, etc). That is why my next medical consultation will be with a neurologist as opposed to another eye doctor. I guess some of these systems can still be considered part of the "visual system", so I guess I'm clarifying that it may not be an "eye issue".

The results with your graphics display are very fascinating. Are you perhaps suggesting that the issue is not with the display type at all (at least in your case?). What type of monitor do you have for your desktop? I'm not that familiar with plasma TVs. I'm guessing they are neither LCDs nor LEDs eh?

Do you know if the backlit Kindles use temporal dithering? Do you suspect your eye strain on those devices are more likely related to the backlight, or the temporal dithering? Is there a way to turn off the backlight completely, but keep the dithering on, to see which one affects you more?

Your discovery that blue-blockers are helping you to some degree is huge! Seriously! It may not solve your problem 100%, but you've at least partially improved your condition. For some of us around here, that's all we're ever hoping for at this point. I'd suggest buying the blue-blocking screen protector for the iPhone 5 in the link in my last post and see how much that helps you to use an iPhone 5 for longer.

With your discovery that you may be sensitive to blue light, what do you think about Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome (a.k.a Irlen Syndrome) as being a possible factor? Or what about photophobia in general?

I'm noticing that I'm asking a lot of questions throughout my posts, haha. I'm just trying to be an outside troubleshooter to someone else's similar issue.

This is going to be long. Fair warning.

<... NPC Explanation ... >

Yeah my NPC is fine. About 2 inches from my face when my eyes are tired, closer when they aren't.

> If you were starting to have problems with reading books or print around the same viewing

> distance as a cell phone screen, then the suggestion could be made that the issue is largely

> with your visual system, instead of the display (i.e. reading anything hurts your eyes).

Nah, pretty sure my visual system is OK. OK being a relative term that means "incandescent light and all the things we're evolved to see are just fine, thanks".

> The results with your graphics display are very fascinating. Are you perhaps suggesting that

> the issue is not with the display type at all (at least in your case?).

I'm not necessarily suggesting that it doesn't matter. What I'm suggesting is that it isn't the primary cause of people's discomfort. There are LED's (such as my home PC monitors, and the display on the iMac 2011 27" widescreen, or the iPhone 4s) with which I have NO problems. Then there are those which are HUGELY problematic.

> What type of monitor do you have for your desktop?

HP 1st-gen ultra-thin LED. Pretty sure I posted the model number earlier in this thread, but I can look it up if you'd like.

> I'm not that familiar with plasma TVs. I'm guessing they are neither LCDs nor LEDs eh?

No, as the name suggests they are PLASMA. A million tiny phosphors filled with a plasma material which glows when excited. Just like a CRT only immensely higher resolution. Super black blacks - because when the phosphors aren't being excited, they don't emit ANY light - and super rich colors. Plasma TV's, although sadly now discontinued, have always provided the absolute best white/black/color levels of any display technology ever created.

*ahem* sorry for that rant. But the point is that a Plasma TV is basically a giant CRT tube that uses a plasma gas and excitation grid instead of a cathode tube and scanning electron gun. And the fact that certain devices, when plugged into the Plasma, can create the type of visual pain I'm experiencing... pretty much rules out the display technology as the sole culprit!

> Do you know if the backlit Kindles use temporal dithering?

No. The backlit kindles still use e-ink, but they put a bright blue LED light behind them. Don't let the term "paperwhite" fool you. It's as close to white as my Uncle Larry with a sunburn... which is to say NOT AT ALL WHITE.

> Do you suspect your eye strain on those devices are more likely related to the backlight,

> or the temporal dithering? Is there a way to turn off the backlight completely, but keep the dithering on, to see which one affects you more?

Backlight all the way. There is no dithering on an e-ink device, other than spatial - which is not a problem for anyone.

> Your discovery that blue-blockers are helping you to some degree is huge! Seriously!

> It may not solve your problem 100%, but you've at least partially improved your condition.

> For some of us around here, that's all we're ever hoping for at this point.

Eh, don't overstate it. I really think they don't do as much as we'd like to think. I have yet to see one that REALLY cuts down on the blue even as much as my Prevencia glasses or Gunnar clear.

> I'd suggest buying the blue-blocking screen protector for the iPhone 5 in the link in my

> last post and see how much that helps you to use an iPhone 5 for longer.

I can use an iPhone 5 for longer when it's in an Otter box, or with any film that provides diffraction. But the blue-blocking film I tried on it was useless. Perhaps the one you recommend is better, not sure I want to spend money on it to find out.

> With your discovery that you may be sensitive to blue light, what do you think about Scotopic Sensitivity

> Syndrome (a.k.a Irlen Syndrome) as being a possible factor? Or what about photophobia in general?

Oh man I just googled Irlen Syndrome. I love syndromes. They're so filled with zero meaning whatsoever. Irlen Syndrome sounds horrifying, but then again so does every "Syndrome" that they have no definitive cause for. I spent the first 38 years of my life with zero visual problems other than nearsightedness, able to read and work and play. I spent 30 of those 38 years programming computers - from the early TRS-80 Model 1 all the way up to modern times. Nothing gave me trouble until they switched to "Blue/White LED with millions of colors".

My personal belief is that we are suffering from a variety of problems:

- Blue light

- PWM

- FRC/Temporal Dither

- Focal Issues

- Lensing

- Glare

In _my_ case in particular? I can work just fine on an LED - as long as it's an early-generation LED. I'm working on a 2012 Dell XPS 17", with a 1080p LED display. It's the 3D display, and hence has extra polarization on it. It's gorgeous, and I have no problems working on it for 8 hours straight (as long as I get adequate breaks - same as with any LCD screen with any backlight).

Actually, I'll go one further - I have a Lenovo X220. My first one was a Core i5 from 2011. Then they came out with a 2012 model with an i7. It came optionally with TWO different screens. One was LED backlit IPS and the other was LED backlit "super crisp" whatever that means. The super crisp was downright PAINFUL. The IPS was great. I swapped panels on my unit to keep the IPS. I this case, I suspect that they were simply using higher quality components in the IPS panel.

I find that at this point, the "nice" panels are the ones that use very little power and are very bright. The ONLY way to achieve super bright output with super low power is to use horrid blue LED's.

But beyond that, it is well established (google it, Anand reported it among others) that Intel and AMD chipsets use some kind of display refresh foolishness, whether it's FRC/Temporal Dither or something similar, that makes people's eyes hurt.

The MacBook has these problems in spades. First of all, Apple wanted to cut costs - their screens were very expensive, especially the first generation of Retina. Second, they have enabled temporal dithering on ALL outputs, whether the display requires it or not.

This has dragged on, but rest assured we don't mind you asking questions. Sadly, most of them have already been asked - and answered - in the past 150 pages.

Hi. I've been following this for awhile and it appears to be the most comprehensive coverage of this problem.

For the last several years, I was exposed to PWM and it gave me all sorts of fun side-effects from headaches, inability to learn (in school at the time) and a overall depression (amongst several other things like a "cloudy mind")

I identified my LED monitor and LED laptop to be the culprit and stopped a overall viewing of any screens I'm not sure contain these effects.

Reading through this it seems something called temporal dithering and blue leds also are part of the problem.

In my attempt to get rid of PWM affecting me, I ended up using this list to obtain a new monitor

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/flicker_free_database.htm

ending up with the Dell U2414H

Following this (over a period of 6 months) I have been in recovery. My headaches diminished, I could focus again and my depression lifted (with no other life changes - interesting). Following a several hour usage I develop some headache but goes away after a short period of time which should be expected as opposed to the 24/7 cycle of pain (some other posters I'm sure know exactly what I'm referring to).

The fact that something flickering could cause such a negative impact on my life is something I've been dealing with and I'm incredibly glad I got that monitor.

However, I really like laptops. For some reason, this seems to be non-existent and I've been searching this thread for what could work. I wonder if such a list of viable laptops exist like the list above for desktop monitors.

I do not use Mac and am a avid Linux user, but in this issue, I'm pretty much willing to go with whatever (I'll still probably try to get linux to run on it 🙂)

Hi Slacor, I can sympathise with your situation as I've had a lot of the same side effects myself - this can have a very negative impact on your life. I'm now getting to the point where I'm working out the root of my issue and have had a bit of a breakthrough this week that makes me realise I've probably got the exact same issues as Gurm42 above.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I can't use my Macbook any more (not worth the pain!) so I bought a really cheap Acer Aspire PC (2nd hand, only £120!) to use as a work computer at home. It uses Intel HD graphics (similar to my Macbook Pro) and I noticed that after an hour of using it on the first day I developed the exact same symptoms as if I was using my laptop - nausea and a swirling headache which eventually developed into a migraine for a day and a headache that lasted for another day.

Since I'm using the same monitor that I can use for hours on my old PC (Benq G2420HD CCFL) I figured the only thing different is the Intel HD graphics chip which the Macbook also uses. I bought a cheap Nvidia graphics card (GT 610 - £30) and installed it 2 days ago and I've been using the computer non-stop since then with absolutely no issues. This may also explain why a user several posts back reported that they could use the new Macbook (with Radeon R9 graphics + the new Intel Iris onboard graphics chip) where they couldn't use the old Macbook with the Intel HD chip.

This makes me wonder if I'm sensitive to LED light at all as I thought I was for years. I have an Acer LED monitor that came with this PC I'm going to test with this setup tomorrow to see what happens. I have a suspicion that it's a combination of factors that give me my symptoms - blue light, perhaps temporal dithering, probably not PWM for me.

Anyways, if you're suffering then I'd highly recommend getting pretty much any cheap PC second hand from Gumtree and bung an Nvidia GT610 into it, if only to rule that out as a potential solution.

Hi Simon,

Thank you for joining the discussion.

I am the guy that replaced the rMBP for the newest model with Nvidia graphic card.

I can confirm that I still using 8 hours a day at work + 2 hours at home, with no issues at all. I haven't experienced any pain or even a discomfort after replace the machine when as soon as I noticed that the new one came with a new graphic card. I just glad it worked out for me. I just curious and crossing my fingers to Gurm42 (and all the other members) finally experience the same relief I did after test the new machine.

Hi AMCarvalho, I'm looking forward to going into the Apple store this week to test out the new Macbook Pro. Just to confirm - yours has the AMD Radeon R9 / Intel Iris Pro graphics combo doesn't it? Not the Nvidia as you mentioned above! I've confirmed that it's the Intel HD graphics that seem to be the root of all evil for me, or at the very least part of it, so perhaps the switch in the new Macbooks over to Intel Iris Pro onboard graphics could be the solution. Fingers, toes and other extremeties are all crossed at this point..

Simon,

Sorry, I have now the AMD Radeon R9 / Intel Iris Pro graphics, not NVidia. The reason I got the new rMBP was because the AMD graphics. Sorry again to confuse you all.

Let me know us know!

I tried an Iris Pro ... WITHOUT the AMD discrete graphics. It was arguably much better than any previous Macbook 2012-2015, but not as good as AMCarvalho has indicated the one with discrete graphics is. I'm still waiting for the newest ones to come in at work so I can try one before I make a major investment.

This is really confusing, since I own a IPC2 (http://www.fit-pc.com/web/products/specifications/ipc2-models/?model[]=IPC2-C460 0-WACB-FMUSB3)

which has Intel HD 4400 Graphics.

Why am I not experiencing these effects? I notice eye fatigue after several hours of usage, but none of the horrible stuff.

I also had some monitors at work that were causing the same effect, after switching to the new monitor, no more effect.

For me, the problem is mitigated, since with the monitor I do not experience any further effects. I want a laptop that also is ok, but getting a screen that works is a tremendous barrier.

"Do you know if the backlit Kindles use temporal dithering? Do you suspect your eye strain on those devices are more likely related to the backlight, or the temporal dithering? Is there a way to turn off the backlight completely, but keep the dithering on, to see which one affects you more?"

I had a kindle, the backlight was definitely the issue. I had to give it away and got one with no back-light, no problems since. You cannot turn the backlight off in the kindle.

Forums are amazing, but there really needs to be a page somewhere summarizing the last 2,272 replies.

So far I understand this:

PWM is bad

Blue LED's are bad.

Temporal Dithering is bad

Intel HD graphic chipset is bad

newest model with Nvidia graphic card. Good

Also, is it so simple as "Eye strain"? I can read a book for 4 hours and get eye strain, but this is a whole new lever (IMO)

I'd like to create a page somewhere, maybe a wiki, or self-hosted.

This is definitely something that needs to be more accessible, this is having a profound impact on people and it's quite difficult to find info on it!

I agree with Slacor that it is really hard to find information on this specific issue we are all presenting. Even the title of the thread with just mere "eye strain" in the title seems too trivial. For many of us, this is much more than your typical eye strain you get when you read a book for too long. Often times, the effects are immediate (within minutes), and take days to resolve with rest (instead of a couple hours with normal eye strain).

I was fine all workweek until I worked for less than 5 minutes with a colleague yesterday that had dual Dell P1913 monitors running on an AMD chipset. It's an LED backlight, and each time I look at an LED monitor, I get a very distinct eye pain. It's quite sharp and concentrated, as if my eyeballs are being pinched, and it's immediate as I look at such a light source. During this brief exposure, the discomfort still remains a good 26 hours later. It's quite amazing actually, and I don't know how to explain it.

The monitor I'm fine with at work for the most part is a Dell U2410 with f.lux @ 5000K and a Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000 display adapter (supposedly bad). The montior I use at home is also a Dell U2410 with f.lux @ 6500K and an nVidia graphics card (both work and home seem "equally good/bad', so in my case, the digital display itself is often the culprit).

This is a very difficult issue to solve. Too many factors.

Hello,

I bought my first macbook air 2015 model just few days ago, and I dicovered that macbook display causing me an eyestrain whitch I never had before.

I take my eyestrain problem serious, because I work as IT administrator so iam sitting in front of computer for an very long time every day.

Since I bought new macbook, my eyestrin problem apeared. I maeade some research in displays and eyetrain topic, and I would like to ask if some foil can help

reduce or get rid of eyestrain. I found ivisor foil http://www.apple.com/shop/product/H8054ZM/A/moshi-13-ivisor-air-matte-screen-pro tector-for-macbook-air

I would like to ask if someone tryed this foil and if it helped with the eyestrain problem.

thanks for answers

Hello

I too have eyestrain with macbook air. I believe its the intel hd graphics driver. I also have a toshiba satellite http://www.toshiba.no/laptops/satellite/l50-b/satellite-l50-b-1r1/ which causes eye strain and that uses the intel hd 4400. But when im using my old laptop http://www.toshiba.no/discontinued-products/satellite-c660d-10w/ with amd hd 4250, my eyes are relaxed and i can use screen for hours with zero eyestrain(without using flux or any glasses, antiglare coating etc. Shame its so slow. So im thinking about buying this one: http://www.siba.no/aktuelle-kampanjer/nyheter/dataprodukter/asus-x550ze-dm051h-1 21216 that comes with amd. I also got an iphone 4s that causes no eyestrain.And i wonder if anyone has tried the macbook 12 retina and tell me if its strain free?

It could very well be Intel graphics - or the screen itself - or both. Your older Toshiba used a TFT screen with 1st-gen LED backlight. I have no problem at all with 1st-gen LED, but liked it better with older Intel graphics. The 4000,4400,4500,5000,5500 are all unpleasant. I suspect they are using FRC (tempo-spatial dithering) by default, as do the newer Radeons.

I really don't understand how manufacturers think that temporo-spatial dithering is good... it's just as bad as PWM only instead of stroboscopic effects you get snow effects... still hellish on the eyes.