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Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

Reply
2,489 replies

Nov 5, 2017 9:39 PM in response to BobTheFisherman

Geez Bob!

Why do you keep searching keyword "Apple" in my post instead of trying to understand the context?

Am I addressing Apple? Call it whatever you want.

By the way is there anything in Terms of Use that says any suggestions to Apple on this forum is strictly forbidden?

I'm just a level 1 with 8 points, you're a level 6 plus 19,481 points, you do not get there by keep going off topic asking members to contact Apple do you?

Why not contribute something that is relevant to the discussion at hand, really Bob!

Nov 6, 2017 7:49 AM in response to Keynode

Keynode wrote:


Geez Bob!

Why do you keep searching keyword "Apple" in my post instead of trying to understand the context?

Am I addressing Apple? Call it whatever you want.

By the way is there anything in Terms of Use that says any suggestions to Apple on this forum is strictly forbidden?

I'm just a level 1 with 8 points, you're a level 6 plus 19,481 points, you do not get there by keep going off topic asking members to contact Apple do you?

Why not contribute something that is relevant to the discussion at hand, really Bob!

1. I'm not searching the keyword Apple, you are directly asking a question of Apple in your posts, "So why stop there, Apple?"

2. "Am I addressing Apple?" Once again, no you are not addressing Apple here. You are posting issues and questions that can not be answered or solved by we users in this community.

3. You can post suggestions as long as you like but they may go unheard by Apple as they do not use this community for product feedback. I provided the link for submitting product feedback.

4. No, I got the points by trying to offer helpful advice. One such piece of advice is to contact Apple regarding product feedback. It is helpful to know that continuing to complain about a product in a 9 year old thread is not helpful. Advising about how to get your feedback to Apple is helpful.

5. If by "discussion at hand" you mean the current discussion, there is no current discussion. This thread is 9 years old and your tactic of keeping it alive is obviously not working. Use the advice I provided to contact Apple. It is the only way they will hear you and possibly investigate/correct your issue.

Nov 6, 2017 8:29 PM in response to BobTheFisherman

1. Again I think you took the highlighted sentence too literally and ignored the context. And like you said since this is a user to user discussion board I have yet seen any user gets confused or complains about anything in my post.


2. So now you start to put yourself in the positions of all other users out there? How can you know it can or can not be answered or solved by users collective efforts if you do not allow it to be discussed.


3. "You can post suggestions as long as you like"....SO I CAN? Thank you!


4. You surely are helpful. No offense but several pages back you suggested me to see an eye doctor! I think that speaks enough volume about your helpfulness.


5. I have no "tactic" here, I'm here merely to share my own observations on this eyestrain issue because here's the official place for such purpose, I may have some greater enthusiasm though, if that is what "gets me in trouble" I will not apologize.


6. Again it's not for you to decide for me what is helpful or not helpful, thank you for your concern anyway!

Dec 12, 2017 2:44 PM in response to Keynode

You may not get anywhere with Apple here. I've had lengthy discussions with them about my first reaction- very severe, and they tacitly recognized the problem, but officially they'd tell me nothing.


Later my contact there called me to set up an interview in order to get the info "directly to the engineers" at Apple.


It was a frustrating and lengthy call, since he was obviously being coached as to what to ask, how to respond, what specific language to use, etc. Many long pauses, none answers, evasions. It was clear Apple was interested in getting details of my experiences. They know it's a problem. They know it only affects a percentage of the population, from mild irritation to severe migraines and vomiting. Who knows what they will do? If anything. They're the richest corporation on the planet for a reason.


Some people can't eat peanut butter, but this is fixable. I'd gladly pay a premium to get my professional life back. By refusing to officially acknowledging the problem and sharing what they know, Apple is hurting people who depend on their products.


That's their choice, but you wont get their attention here.


When Bob the Bot makes a snark: Yes, many of us have been to eye specialists. There's nothing wrong with our eyes. For most of us they're better than most. Whatever causes this - it's not known to the broader medical community. Little research is being done publicly. Most opthamologists aren't computer specialists.


This forum's purpose is to let people share info and realize it's not just them. So it's not for you is it? Bot.

Dec 26, 2017 5:18 AM in response to david drede

Indeed!

They know what this is but like you put it, Apple are not rich for no reason, they have to keep the money rolling in in...

Also not surprised that they played dumb on the line to you.

And they even did this toiPhone X, unbelievable! They've really got some balls now, you have to give them credit for that.

As You would think a 10 year anniversary flagship should be treated seriously, or at least to be spared from the misfortune of controversial technologies like PWM or FRC(dither).

Dec 28, 2017 5:34 PM in response to BobTheFisherman

No. Listening to iPods is fun though...



In all seriousness, it's a complicated problem that affects a small but vocal minority of the population. To keep it simple essentially certain aspects of modern LED backlit and/or OLED displays and rendering output of video drivers (just to name a few) seem to interfere with what is presumably a central nervous system impairment in a small amount of people, causing pain and other illness. So your somewhat right on it being a health problem but it can be severely aggravated by certain technical aspects, most notably flickering screens (PWM).



With regards to Apple products. I heard from a source in the "display engineering" department that Apple used LED backlights with PWM in their devices until phasing them out around the middle of 2010, so with regards to Apple products and PWM, we're largely good there, with the exception of the iPhone X, which is OLED.



I personally started getting sensitivity to flickering lights and screens just one day in September 2011, just woke up said day and that was that. I do have a congenitally deformed optic nerve, which could be related. The proper scientific studies haven't been done yet, so doctor's and other healthcare professionals aren't entirely sure what to do with the problem of people getting headaches from screens.



To make a long story short things were so bad last year that I was going blind and getting headaches everyday, and the doctor's were largely stumped. On January 2nd this year I started taking cannabis oil (legal in Canada) and my vision has improved, hasn't been this good in 7 years, doctor thinks it could be my vision "repairing" itself. I did get my vision tested a few weeks ago, and it has improved from 2 years ago, so there's one datapoint.



As for myself. I've had a 2015 Macbook Pro with AMD graphics since September 2015, and although I still had problems with headaches back then, if I was careful with what lights I was exposed to I was largely fine. That's why I am an advocate for both "eye-safe screens" and solving the underlying neurological and health problems that cause said impairments.



Willing to discuss this issue with you in a compassionate matter, both a health and technology problem. Feel free to find my email on the "LED Strain" forum



Be well

Jan 16, 2018 1:35 PM in response to jtl999

Hey folks, I've been reading this topic a bit (not everything of course), and since I started having really really bad symptoms (which I didn't realize that they're coming from my 27" Apple LED Cinema display) like lightheadness, nausea, neck pain, etc., I wanted to investigate what's the heck is going on. I came across this thread and I'm glad I'm not the only one. I've tried everything from changing my monitor colors to reduce blue, trying dimming the brightness, a lot of other things, nothing helped... Except one thing, which reduced the symptoms quite a lot. Of course this is not the ultimate solution, for me this is only transition until I sell this junk (mac pro with dual led cinema display monitors).


So, what I did that helped is reduced the resolution, which natively is 2560x1440 to 2048x1152 for both monitors. Of course this is a big no for a designer, but I have no other solution at the moment until I sell this. It's the only way to try to do some necessary work.


Please try this and post your replies. It helped me.

Cannot wait to buy a PC and a good monitor. I heard benQ makes good monitors regarding this.

Jan 30, 2018 8:07 AM in response to jtl999

A 4th kind, of flicker! 😠


BFI ===> Black Frame Insertion { lot worse than PWM, more in the following link }

This is a technology used to eliminate Motion Blur.

When a display sure is of no PWM, and no dither either, yet still gives you crazy, there is another thing to look into.

BFI

This may be a decent read :: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/image-flicker


we now have four.


1. BFI { likely most severe ⚠⚠⚠}

✅ low freq at 60 Hz in most case { if sync with 60 Hz refresh ; GPU driver BFI switch in place? }

✅ extreme irritation when large area of bright color displayed {

flicker graph :: extreme

bright color <vs> black inserted }


2. PWM { less severe ⚠⚠}

✅ higher freq, easily above 200 ~ 500 Hz { GPU driver PWM tweaking ? }

✅ bad irritation when large area of bright color displayed {

flicker graph :: extreme

bright color <vs> backlight off }


3. Dither { we may bark up the wrong tree regarding eye strain ⚠}

✅ low freq 60 Hz when FRC. Frame Rate Control { GPU driver Dither on/off switch ? }

✅ maybe ok ??

flicker graph :: relatively flat

proximate, neighboring colors used to create mid tone


4. Inversion { rarely cause any problem }

✅ low freq at 30 hz { half the refresh rate if 60 }

✅ can be bad with defective panel


Also......google "Sample-and-hold LCD", a more eye friendly approach.

For example, 1st result 1st page :: https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/oled-motion-blur/


Rabbit hole too deep

Feb 8, 2018 10:29 AM in response to Keynode

So why do I make that post?


Because my MacBook Pro doesn't have me too much leeway for any test that worth testing, Last month I decided to "mess with" three windows 10 laptops: a Dell Latitude, a Lenovo, an Acer TravelMate, all have the same resolution of 1366x768 (low ppi means large physical pixels, important in this test), and Intel HD graphics 520/ 4400/ 405 respectively. All kinds of "hacks" and driver test been done! I then deactivated and reseted the OS and returned them one by one with in 14 days (that's the plan, and we can have a moral discussion about that later.)

{Despite been reading posts on related forums, I thought it's important to do this and to see it for myself!}


Note: large pixels because easier to see the shimmering patterns among the flicker, important!

Note: the Intel HD 4400 Lenovo has a discrete card: nVidia GTX 850M (but which is basically hijacked by integrated HD graphics since you can't disable the latter in UEFI/BIOS)


What I found out is about as bad as people claim it to be!


All three laptops' flicker on Windows 10 (different driver combinations tested, even tried "disable" the graphics card, no effects) (PWM captured on Dell {except on full bright}, the other two passed the camera test.), and eye strains too!!


when the brightness was 100% on Dell, the flicker didn't change , the screen was never "calm", eye strain came in about 15~30 minutes.


Acer (this new model has unhackable UEFI/BIOS ) and Dell flickered terribly even in the UEFI/BIOS mode (that's a SHOCKER! ) ( GPU driver not loaded in UEFI mode ). Turned out Intel used a GOP (Graphics Output Protocol) driver as a low layer graphics interface (seen the GOP version in UEFI ).


Flickers in UEFI/BIOS without OS even boot in!!?? What the **** is that!

Something smells fundamentally fishy!. [MARKER 1]


I had Other OS's tested on all three laptops by live booting a USB drive ==> Ubuntu, Manjaro Linux, and remix OS (this last one basically transformed the laptops into a laptop Android which runs Android apps). Each chosen for a good reason.


Each OS successfully recognized the Intel HD card, installed the driver automatically (with no dithering enabled by default {as far as my google and gut can tell} ) (no PWM {noticeably} too), but it all resulted in the same eyestrain on each OS on each laptop with no different from that eyestrain on Windows 10 on each mode respectivelyl!


If I were to put High Sierra on them, I'd bet the flicker must have been the same. [MARKER 2]


With the cooperation of large, non-retina pixels {think "flicker zoomed in"}, it's easy to see the flickering pixels dancing, "rippling" fast around on the screen, I could clearly see a "residual flickering" pattern like a "45 degree rotated checkers board" with small squares and stripes shooting diagonally all over it( So NO! It's not that blue-and-yellow waves you capture on camera). I can also tell its frequency was rather low! And by its intensity it's not inversion.


And if you think cameras should also be able to see this flickering pattern?, ~Wrong!! Our cellphones/tablet were not able to capture anything, at all !!! (Asus zenfone, iPhone SE, NEXUS 9, All failed!, with or without 3rd party camera apps)


Whatever that is, it doesn't look like PWM,...much less dither, ( or another kind!, a new PWM, I thought) The intensity is sickening, unmistakably.


The timing of the flicker looks not uniform for each pixel, they take turns..., one moment some are on and some are off and vice versa the next, alternately! MAYBE it's in this way the area as a whole can retain a static brightness at any moment. (Cameras can only see "fluctuations", if there's none it sees nothing.) [MARKER 3]


Put together MARKER 1+2+3 :: that's when I thought something is missing, things just don't add up too well. I don't know.


Until~~~ I bumped into this BFI thing (which in itself is a huge topic) through tons of tons of random reference click.

it could quite possibly make the equation more complete.

Feb 20, 2018 9:51 AM in response to BobTheFisherman

Knew you gonna bob up again, it really hurts you seeing the pages grow?

Not an apple issue? Yeah we all know that answer do we?

You think Im quitting my job sitting here 24/7 posting or what?

Only took me 14 minutes to post that one!!

I'm interested, that's all!!

Actually I'm interested in a lot of things too and I do all of those things!!

It's good wasting you life on things you're interested in!

Hey it's called Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro, I'm interested, so I'm here to discuss that!!

And I will continue to say something about that!!!

Mar 10, 2018 4:51 AM in response to BobTheFisherman

👿👿👿 No apple's fault then!! No big deal!!

It makes sense the more you think abuot it

they don't make panel

they don't control LCD science

Koreans made it, Apple bought it.

Not a fault! End of story

Apple must know people have wronged them

But who will believe Apple?

And to whom should Apple complain?

SAMSUNG? LG? POTUS? GOD?

Living life of a scapegoat, Apple is tough!

Tears of injustice, they must shed in the corner

But a shining new era will come Bob!

Have faith!

We are helping Apple catch this thing!

This very thing!

It crawled into a minority of our beloved Mac

Spreading all the strain in the name of Apple

Apple, be strong!

we are in this togetherr

The storm will pass, this is the darkest hour

And stay there, thing!

Dont move a muscle!

We users are coming to G-E-T-C-H-A!!

YEEEE!

😎😎😎😎

Mar 10, 2018 6:25 AM in response to BobTheFisherman

Bob you're good, you're too not easily giving up!!😁


Jokes aside

Others are right about the fact there truly ha's been critical changes in LCD technology the past decade in terms of hold drive VS impulse drive ( strobe by black insertion), and static VS dynamic backlight control ( strobe by Scanning!! call it PWM 2.0 if you will, or 3.0, it definitely advanced!! ); To understand why the issues are here to stay we must find out what has happened in the LCD world and how it's reshaping the way images being viewed. Mothers and fathers reading this should be extremely careful what your kids are exposed to now a days, their eyes are more fragile than we adults, test it yourself before you give to your children phones and pads. Apple folks may think about this too, seriously, like provide an hold mode in which all flickering parts are put to a halt.

Mar 10, 2018 11:04 AM in response to RMartin111

I've been using my MacBook Pro 2017 13-inch for half a year and all the time it's giving me eye strain after a few minutes, I can feel the burning in my eyes. I've tried to manage brightness level, my workspace has good light conditions - nothing helped. I've visited a doctor to check my eyes - everything is ok.


Could this issue be related to specifics of MBP's IPS display? Is this my eyes just can't get used to it or it might be some defected unit? I've contacted Apple Support and we got to the only solution - is to try to replace this unit by another and check if it'll work.


Anybody else have the same problem with MBP retina displays? What is the best solution except for just to return it?


Before I got this model, I worked on TN monitor(ViewSonic VG2228WM) and lenovo z570 laptop with LED TN display and had no issues with that.

Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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