Level 1

10 points

Logic dropping MIDI OUT during a track

Running Logic 8 on a Macbook Pro for live performance. 98% of the time it's working very nicely, but have had a couple of instances where the MIDI info being sent to external processors and lighting controllers is being 'dropped'

There are a couple of additional Audio tracks (software instruments bounced to WAVs) which continue to run and no error message comes up... it just seems that the MIDI instructions stop being transmitted. MIDI IN still stays in operation as Superior Drummer keeps being triggered by the kit without missing a beat

All returns to normal on opening the next song (calling up the next song via OnStage does involve Logic being closed and re-opened with the next song then ready to go) and there's no need to reset anything else

This has happened on two different MIDI interfaces - first time on a USB Edirol UM-1 and second time on a Saffire Pro 40 via FW400, so that would indicate it's not an external hardward issue and with the Logic 'reboot', it would appear to be a software problem

Is this a known issue..?

iMac 24" 3.06GHz 4Gb & MacBook Pro 15" 2.4GHz 4Gb, Mac OS X (10.5.6)

Posted on Jan 18, 2009 1:17 PM

58 replies

Bee Jay

Level 6

10,900 points

Jan 19, 2009 10:33 AM in response to Cover'd

I'll freely admit I'm a total newb to Mac & Logic (three months now) and a
lot of the technical questions (IAC bus & MIDIpipe?!?!) are way above me...
at the moment! I'm sure I can learn how set up some tests with a bit of direction

No problem - without other info it's obviously impossible to guess what a poster knows or doesn't, and it's also impossible to spoonfeed every tiny thing, so the best course of action is to go "Oh, I don't know about that, could you go into more detail" and we happily will.

The IAC bus is basically an OSX feature, a virtual MIDI port, which you can use to send MIDI between applications. So, in Logic, you could send a track to the IAC bus (once enabled in the Audio/MIDI Setup utility program), and in a different application (say, Ableton Live) set a track to listen to the IAC bus, and now you can send MIDI between Logic and Live.

MIDIpipe - this is a utility program that creates a virtual MIDI port, and then lets you add processing to the "pipe". It's quite cool. For instance, you could route MIDI data into MIDIpipe from Logic, then use MIDIpipe's monitor to monitor the MIDI info, or the other tools to process it in various ways.

Having said that, a total driver / prefs flush and reinstall does seem like a good suggestion... however I go about doing that?!?!

MIDI drivers are in: /Library/Audio/MIDI Drivers. Trash them, reboot, then reinstall.
Also trash /Users/ you*/Library/Preferences/ByHost/com.apple.MIDI
and also
/Users/ you/Library/Preferences/com.apple.audio.AudioMIDISetup.plist

The Edirol UM-1

Like I say, try and see when Logic drops MIDI -is it still sending to the driver, or is it sending nothing, to try and work out whether the issue is with Logic, or the issue is with the system. When it drops - is MIDI not being sent to any MIDI port (including virtual ones eg IAC bus) or is it just to the Edirol port?

Eriksimon

Level 6

15,428 points

Jan 19, 2009 10:24 AM in response to Cover'd

Cover'd wrote:
I'm perfectly happy to email / upload the two projects for someone else to look at.

You can email it to artflywork at yahoo dot com.
or post a link to it here...

regards, Erik.

Pancenter

Level 6

14,788 points

Jan 19, 2009 12:00 PM in response to Cover'd

Cover'd wrote:
Thanks for your assistance thus far 🙂

It does seem crazy that such an upgraded system couldn't handle this - so that's why I think it's more of a software issue

It almost seems as though communication with the MIDI OUT port gets lost / broken... but the MIDI IN stays connected and fine... that in itself points to Logic and not hardware... humm again!?!?!

I was going to suggest "USB", while technically able to handle massive amounts of MIDI data is often less than a 100% reliable protocol. The Compaq you mentions uses a hardware UART to handle MIDI, it's "old school" but extremely reliable.

If it was related to USB you might me better off with a multiport MIDI interface, even a dual port port model like the MOTU Fastlane.
However, if it was MIDI interface related I think there would be a few stuck notes happening as lost note-offs are a sure sign of data overload.

Just tossin' out some ideas.

pancenter-

Cover'd Author

Level 1

10 points

Jan 19, 2009 12:09 PM in response to Cover'd

Thanks Bee Jay - I'll look in to that further

I was going to try Ableton as an alternative actually - at least I would know one way of another. That could be a permanent, perhpas more suitable app to use anyway - provided we can do playlists for stage use (even bigger bonus if they'll call and start from external instruction as that's the main reason for using Logic via OnStage)

Erik - you have mail sir 🙂

Cover'd Author

Level 1

10 points

Jan 19, 2009 12:16 PM in response to Cover'd

Oddly enough Pancenter, we have had a couple 'hanging notes' from the Triton which we've NEVER had before since using the Saffire Pro 40 via FW400. It didn't do that with the USB Edirol UM-1 and neither with an Echo AudioFire 8 previously (which lasted six weeks before 'losing' its FW port!)

I am still struggling to comprehend that delivering what is without doubt LESS MIDI information via Firewire 400 can be less efficient / reliable than that age old Joystick port! I'm not questioning your view, it's just amazing to think that this could actually be the case!

Bee Jay

Level 6

10,900 points

Jan 19, 2009 12:21 PM in response to Cover'd

I was going to try Ableton as an alternative actually - at least I would know one way of another. That could be a permanent, perhpas more suitable app to use anyway

Yes, I would recommend Live for this (in fact, it's one of the reasons I have it.) Live is just better suited for this kind of thing - it's like a general, customisable and playable audio playground, whereas Logic is more of a traditional composing/recording DAW.

And if you need the Logic instruments, then you could always run Mainstage along with Live as a Logic instrument host.

Cover'd Author

Level 1

10 points

Jan 19, 2009 12:48 PM in response to Cover'd

No need for the Logic Instruments in a live situation - just the Superior Drummer Plug-In (that can work in standalone mode, but it's nice to have a few kits for different songs without the need to manually load them in and out)

The additional tracks can still be composed in Logic with it's libraries etc and exported as Wavs to Ableton anyhow

Humm... more to ponder!

iSchwartz

Level 5

4,321 points

Jan 19, 2009 1:19 PM in response to Cover'd

Got a copy of your song from Erik (through secret channels -- don't tell anyone, OK?!) 😉

OK, down to business. I didn't see too much in your song that set off alarm bells. It's all very clean. But I'll offer a few pieces of "better paranoid than sorry" advice...

1. If your drummer is only outputting notes (and perhaps a limited number of controllers), set the MIDI input filter in your project settings to filter out everything else

2. MIDI clock -- even though it's set to destination=off, uncheck the checkbox

3. Now, perhaps more importantly than the above... in your "Fronts" track I see there are notes overlapping (in those clusters of notes). Not sure if you require that overlap to achieve the lighting effect, but if not I'll suggest using the note overlap correction function to place a bit of space between the notes. This would (potentially) decrease the likelihood of an error in the event Logic outputs the data in running status mode.

4. Perhaps most importantly... I'm not sure I like the idea of the drummer having to access the SD plug from an armed track in the arrange page. I think things would be a bit more foolproof if you were to go into the environment and connect port 1 of the Physical Input device directly to the instrument. That way he is playing that plug directly, and has the advantage of your being able to select any track (for muting, soloing, troubleshooting or re-programming purposes) without disconnecting the drummer from the instrument.

Again, 1, 2, and 3 are all borderline-paranoid, nitpicky stuff, though I think #4 might be a good thing to do in general for all songs.

Wait... if you do #4 that means you can never turn the drummer off \[ahem] "accidentally"... 😉

iSchwartz

Level 5

4,321 points

Jan 19, 2009 1:27 PM in response to iSchwartz

One other thing that did actually set off alarm bells...

All of the sub-channels on your GM multi-instrument have their program change checkboxes checked. This means that at the start of your song, Logic will spit out PC's for all of those channels. Yet I see you have manually inserted PC's in various tracks. If you didn't intend for those checkboxes to be checked, uncheck them (and then re-save).

On other final nitpick... your tempo event starts at 1 2 1 1. Suggest changing that to 1 1 1 1. Not having a tempo event on 1 1 1 1 can cause problems, none of which are related to your problem (I don't think) but again, I'm being paranoid here.

Cover'd Author

Level 1

10 points

Jan 19, 2009 2:48 PM in response to Cover'd

Ooo yes! Excellent points there!

I agree with them all of course - just the sort of picky stuff I like but not gotten around to (there's a lot of work to do when transferring something like 70 songs to a new system!), didn't think was of much relevance or plain old didn't know about or was unsure how to do it 🙂

1 - The only commands that the triggered Alesis DM5 puts out are 5 MIDI notes (Bass Drum, Snare, Snare Rim, Hi Tom & Lo Tom) - nothing else at all, but filtering is indeed another precaution

2 - MIDI Clock - will do!

3 - Those are notes which trigger individual PAR cans via a dedicated MIDI driven Dimmer Pack. Whilst it's been me who's handled the switch to Mac & Logic etc, it's the keyboard player who actually programs all the MIDI stuff (admittedly, he's not as fussy / thorough / obsessive as me!) so I'm not sure of the relevance of his overlapping notes..? Whether that's slack programming or deliberate to have a smooth transition between one set of bulbs going off whilst another set come on..? I'll look into that

4 - Yes, I agree there - I did look 'briefly' in the Environment window to see if I could work out a better way, but couldn't easily suss it so moved on and accepted that the drum track would need to be selected and disciplined myself to check that is the very last thing done when saving and exiting. I need to fiddle some more then to get what would be without doubt a safer method - oh and there's always the mute buttons on the desk 😉

5 - I will un-check those boxes, I suppose I didn't think it would make much difference either way, but yes, I understand what you're saying there

The final tempo nit-pick actually happened as I was finalising the "MP3'd" version to send to Erik. It usually is beat 1, bar 1 🙂

All of the above advice is really, really appreciated, so thanks very much for that, although I suspect that neither you or I fully believe that this is the cause of the odd problem we've experienced...

I'll tidy and sort the things discussed as they're all very good practice anyway and see where that takes us (Oof! Another few long sessions to look forward to then! 70 songs take forever to tweak!)

Many thanks once again!

Clive

Pancenter

Level 6

14,788 points

Jan 19, 2009 4:06 PM in response to Cover'd

Cover'd wrote:
Oddly enough Pancenter, we have had a couple 'hanging notes' from the Triton which we've NEVER had before since using the Saffire Pro 40 via FW400. It didn't do that with the USB Edirol UM-1 and neither with an Echo AudioFire 8 previously (which lasted six weeks before 'losing' its FW port!)

Like you I doubt it's the MIDI interface but just for your information. A MIDI interface/Firewire audio combi can sometimes cause problems (hanging notes...etc) when there's both audio and MIDI going on, but it usually takes a considerable amount of data before something shows up. You did say you had hanging notes on the Triton, so there is something going on.

I am still struggling to comprehend that delivering what is without doubt LESS MIDI information via Firewire 400 can be less efficient / reliable than that age old Joystick port! I'm not questioning your view, it's just amazing to think that this could actually be the case!

New is not necessarily better, a hardware UART (serial interface/game port) handles MIDI I/O independently from the processor, at least as far as using CPU cycles. USB uses the host system's processor to buffer and send data in small packets. If there's a system spike USB can cr@p out, I've had it happen but never lost MIDI output.

You could always run a couple of experiments that might narrow things down.

1. Run the project with the exception of input to superior drummer form the kit.
Instead, create an extra audio track and select it before running the project.
Two things happen here, not only do you not have input from the kit but AU instrument track is no longer selected/active.

2. Add the Edirol USB interface (if you still have it) and split the load between the two.

pancenter-

Cover'd Author

Level 1

10 points

Jan 19, 2009 4:23 PM in response to Cover'd

Pancenter -

Yes, there is 'something' going on which is causing the Triton to hang. Again, this isn't consistent or replicable either! Only had that with the addition of the Saffire Pro 40 last weekend

Yes, I suppose that new isn't necessarily better, but with MIDI being such comparatively small data format these days, one would have thought that an all singing, all dancing MBP would not even be needing to try!

Splitting the load to USB Eridol UM-1 could indeed be an option, but bear in mind that this MIDI OUT drop issue first happened whilst using that and the Headphone Jack out for audio whilst waiting for the replacement Firewire interface to turn up... but yes, splitting the load - whether it be all MIDI v all Audio or a hybrid of the two, could be an option worth exploring (even if it only solves the Triton hang!)

Many thanks 🙂

Clive

iSchwartz

Level 5

4,321 points

Jan 20, 2009 12:19 AM in response to Cover'd

fussy / thorough / obsessive

You're talking about you, but you're talking about me. 🙂

While pancenter didn't beg you as I did, he did mention the very type of interface I'd recommend you use as well. At the risk of dating myself, a Unitor8 or AMT8 (or both, or their modern equivalent, giving you a true 16-port MIDI interface so you can also eliminate the daisy-chaining) would be just the ticket. Especially for live, daisy-chaining can be a real liability: if the lead device should go down, you lose the device(s) connected to it.

Hope you figure it out. Cheers!

-=iS=-

Jan 22, 2009 6:26 PM in response to Cover'd

Hi Cover'd.

I'm having exactly the same problem as you.
I use Logic 8 to play backing tracks and to send midi notes to a lighting controller (Pulsar Masterpiece).
Everything works fine until about 60 mins into the show when the lights stick on the last setting. I then have to stop and restart the logic project by pushing the space bar then it all works again.
As weird as this sounds, i put it down to the midi interface (MOTO express 128) or my laptop only being able to handle around 60 mins of abuse before it stops sending midi out note. For example, if i'm due on stage at 9pm, i'll turn my laptop on about 8:55pm, boot logic, load the project in and start the show at 9. Then at about 9:55pm the midi notes will stick and my lights will remain on the last setting.
However, if i'm due on stage at 9pm but i turn my laptop on at 8:30pm the same thing will happen but at 9:30pm.

I was going to try OnStage as it closes and opens logic projects so i'm thinking that every time a new song starts it will refresh all the midi info but i haven't got a midi device to send program changes to OnStage. Apparently you can get logic to send onstage a program change by routing a midi channel to the internal IAC driver but i haven't got a clue how to do that. SO if anyone know how to do that i'm all ears.

Cheers
Pete

Eriksimon

Level 6

15,428 points

Jan 23, 2009 6:44 AM in response to RETAKE THAT

Take a look at your *Energy Saver* settings, in *System Preferences*. It is probably set to put the disk and/or the system to sleep after one hour of inactivity - and the disk probably stays idle while Logic's playing because the MIDI can all be read from RAM and there is no need to access the disk.

Regards, Erik.

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Logic dropping MIDI OUT during a track