DV video quality

Addition to post above.

1. Quality of imported DV footage is equal for iMovie 08 and iMovie HD (I suppose that 08 and 09 would be the same)

(click picture to have it 100% scale)

2. Share iDVD in iMovie HD made through DV stream passed to iDVD project (you may check it inside of container of IMHD project





Message was edited by: Serhij

Message was edited by: Serhij

Quote:
4. I am not able to see mentioned "single field processing" effect since we are working with DV sources only without re-compression to other formats before we pass clip to iDVD.

With playing around this subject I've found the visible difference.


I am still unable to see it when DVD playing at hardware player and TV (I don't have big plasma yet)
and I am going to visit friend of mine to check it out at his home theatre.

As I've found out -- you can NOT really know if you have both fields unless you use dv with fast motion. You should see combing.

But, I'm not sure why you are testing. 😉

It's been confirmed dozens of times for over a year that dv loses a field. And, I've confirmed and posted the solution.

480i or 576i into iM09 and 480i or 576i out of iDVD on DVD.

Just like 1080i into iM09 and 1080i out of Toast on bluray.

Serhij:

If you're comparing based on resolution of the output, you'll never see any difference. The format of the output is not going to vary; it's the overall image detail that will be impacted by the loss of the DV resolution. Think of it this way: If you drop half the 480 lines, leaving 240 lines of detail, it doesn't matter if you then scale it back to 480 lines on output. You've still lost the visual clarity as part of the process. The only way to compare is by looking at frames of video, not the numbers.

--JV

Steve:

I have tried your procedure with NTSC 4:3 DV footage and found that it doesn't work for me in iMovie '08. I tried all sorts of different combinations of M-JPEG, AIC, Interlaced, Deinterlaced, and as long as I gave iMovie 720 x 480 resolution footage, I always had poor quality output (and it's even visible in the preview window when scrubbing the project).

The only thing that worked for me was to do what was suggested here: http://imovietricks.blogspot.com/2008/10/good-quality-from-dv-source.html

where the key difference is converting the resolution to 540 lines vertically. (Also this fixed another problem I had with using MPEG Streamclip, which is that it didn't maintain the TV aspect ratio properly and then iMovie would crop the sides to get it back into conformity in the project.) Contrary to that web site, however, it did not matter if I maintained interlacing or converted to progressive. I could also achieve the same thing using QT Player to export a similarly configured file at 720 x 540.

Bottom line for me: The magic comes in having 540 lines of resolution, not the codec or the interlacing/progressive format. When I then Export to Quicktime using DV output settings, I get close to the original level of detail in the final movie.

--JV

Steve, and this whole thread, were discussing the imovie that is in iLife 09.

Steve Mullen wrote:
As I've found out -- you can NOT really know if you have both fields unless you use dv with fast motion. You should see combing.

But, I'm not sure why you are testing. 😉

It's been confirmed dozens of times for over a year that dv loses a field. And, I've confirmed and posted the solution.

Hi Steve,

Thank you for your comments and big support for video fans at Mac community.

I am not newbie with video, but I am with Mac 🙂 In previous times I used to work with Windows software.

I've done my own comparison, as I have read a lot of "single field processing" effect but was unable to find-out exact details and see the difference with final DVD product at mine TV.

I was reading your solution with de-interlace and cross converting to AIC and would like to avoid it, as there will be losses.

These tests helped me to get clue what and how is going on with DV @ Mac and I found my own receipt to work around with this issue => iMovie (for fast rough cuts) => xml => FCE (for final ones) 🙂. And most important reason that I like to share my experience with others to help them.

I was looking for answer if there are differences and/or losses when capturing is performed in iMovie HD, iMovie 08/09, FCE and found that there are _NO DIFFERENCES_ in captured DV footage.

The high quality of DV video from iMovie HD is getting just in one case, when you share project to iDVD directly (though mov container linked to external DV sources).

In case when export performed using Quick Time to DV stream - there are no difference in DV from iMovie HD and iMovie 08/09 - in all cases one field disappear. 😟
So there other solution needs to be found more than one project needs to be added to final DVD disk.

jvolino wrote:
Serhij:

If you're comparing based on resolution of the output
...
You've still lost the visual clarity as part of the process. The only way to compare is by looking at frames of video, not the numbers.

I am not comparing resolution of output. Look carefully this screenshot.


The picture at background is having both fields (interlaced shape of bird head). Picture above it is having just one field (no interlace). Physical dimensions are equal.

"I was reading your solution with de-interlace and cross converting to AIC and would like to avoid it, as there will be losses."

My eBook on iM09 will be done by April 1 -- until then:

1) My original iM08 solution was to deinterlace DV while converting to AIC.

2) Once we all confirmed that iM09 could import and export 1080i (not export to 720p) I decided to see if iM09 could woek with interlaced 480i and 576i. The answer is it can.

3) DVDs use 4:2:0 color sampling Converting to AIC simply causes the conversion from DV's 4:1:1 color sampling to occur earlier. So, there will always be color information lost in making DVDs.

3) My book will have the detailed steps so dates aren't lost. But, simply put:

A) Capture DV. <-- no fields are discarded.

B) Convert clips using MPEGstream clip to AIC. <-- no fields are discarded.

C) Import and edit. <-- no fields are discarded.

D) Export as DV. You MUST use the Custom frame size setting! <-- no fields are discarded.

E) Import into iDVD. < -- no fields are discarded.

F) Do not deinterlace for the internet IN iM09. Always export as interlace

PS: I do not think this will work with iM08.

Thank you for sharing this detailed guideline, Steve. I am sure that it will help to many of guys who meet the quality degradation when working with DV sources in iMovie.

I am personally prefer to stay with DV format only. I've found differ approach which meet my expectation without re-compression to AIC.
1. Import DV to iMovie (it works for 08 and 09 either)
2. Make rough cuts (even precise cuts in IM09 now!) of video clip in iMovie
3. When story is created all I do - export it to Final Cut XML
4. Start FCE (Final Cut Express) and import XML file to it.
5. At timeline I have my edited video and sound
6. I can adjust/add some transition here.
7. Titles. It worst, they are not exported and I used to re-create/create them in FCE. I would like to have them in iMovie 09 style but for the moment the only way which may work but require a lot of efforts is to create them at green screen in IM and export them as DV file and later add them with keying in FCE as overlay video.
8. Export DV Stream from FCE. All fields are in place.
9. Create iDVD with resulted DV file(s)

The benefits of this approach are:
- you do not need to re-compress you sources (time and space saving)
- no details/quality of DV are lost
- you may adjust your audio level more precisely
- possible to have more than 1 HQ DV in iDVD project

In the same time the biggest disadvantages are:
- FCE needs to be bought/installed
- Process of adding titles not convenient as in iMovie (you may need to learn LiveType)
- FCE is greatly differ and it needs to be learned

Comparison result vs original


Illustrated process:


Original / FCE DV stream
/

Additional comparison in Photoshop
Original, zoom 200%


FCE DV Stream, zoom 200%


Difference of layers (export settings of DV needs to be adjusted to keep non square pixels of DV)

Steve,
I were playing with AIC and your process. Can you add few details more, please?

Steve Mullen wrote:
B) Convert clips using MPEGstream clip to AIC. <-- no fields are discarded.</div>
By default MPEG Stream clip recommend Top field dominance for all video instead DV. In the same time sourced DV is having Bottom field dominance. The question is shell I change field dominance or not?

Steve Mullen wrote:
D) Export as DV. You MUST use the Custom frame size setting! <-- no fields are discarded.</div>
There are 2 ways to export to DV from iMovie. I did not found Custom frame settings in any of them.
Where it have to be found?

Steve Mullen wrote:
PS: I do not think this will work with iM08.

I were trying to play around with IM08 and I was unable to make it working. I'll check in IM09 later.

Guys, I am so FRUSTRATED! I am new to HD (got a Canon Vixia HF11 today.

2 weeks ago my daughter was born and I taped her first week and 1/2 all with my old Canon Optura 30 (miniDV). I imported the footage to iMovie 09 (I am used to using iMovie 06 HD) and I was disappointed with what I saw inside the player (grainy at most places).

I have a few questions here:

1. I have some of the footage at 4:3 (forgot to set it to 16:9) and some of it in 16:9. How can I mix these 2 without losing much? I want to have the finished product of her first week as 16:9 (all clips), not 4:3. So basically I would need to "convert" the 4:30 pieces to 16:9 (in the same timeline bc it will be "my daughter's first week" video).

2. If I start shooting with the AVCHD Canon Vixia HF11 now and want to make a "my daughter's first MONTH" video mixing the miniDV footage + the ACVHD footage from the Vixia, would that be possible? Or totally messy?

3. The files that are saved in the "iMovie events" folder (in Finder) are the badly imported ones or are those "original"? Meaning that only the footage within the iMovie window is lossy AND the footage in the events folder (.dv format) hasn't suffered any loss? Note: I imported with iMovie 08 and then I upgraded to iMovie 09 after that import.

4. Would it be better to do it all on iMovie 06 HD? Would IT mix AVCHD and miniDV without any loss?

Sorry for the newbie questions... I am just so upset that I didn't buy an HD camera BEFORE my daughter was born and now I have this DV quality footage of her first week (and the iMovie 08/09 quality issue makes me feel even worse)...



More of my questions here:


http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1935823&tstart=0

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1930606&tstart=0


You guys know everything about video whereas I am an amateurs that tries to make home videos new to iMovie 09 and now to AVCHD!!! Totally lost... please advise...

Follow-up question:

5. What would be the best way of converting the .dv footage so it would work on the same timeline as AVCHD (from my new Canon)? I do not mind the 4:3 footage being square as it is normally (with the bars to the left and right of the screen) - would be nice if I could put some colorful bars instead of the normal black bars.. but not a priority)...

You don't have to convert anything. You can mix HD and DV in the same project in iMovie 09.

Set the aspect ratio you prefer in File/Project Properties.

If you pick 16:9, your widescreen footage will fit perfectly. For your 4:3 DV footage, you can either select Fit (which will show the whole frame but letter box the sides) or you can choose crop (which will create the widescreen frame by cropping the top and bottom.) You can select Fit or Crop on a clip by clip basis. You can set a default in Project Properties.