Classical music on iPod Classic?

There are really two problems which lead to the difficulties in classifying classical music works and recordings which are discussed in this thread.

1) The structures which are built up in iTunes (and then paralleled to some extent on the iPod) are based on data from tags in the music files (MP3 or whatever). This data is not structured enough, in my opinion, to allow an optimal solution in iTunes. iTunes mirrors these tags (largely) but the data really calls for more structuring, e.g. composer -> {composer1, composer2, ...} -> {surname, other names, dates, birthplace, etc.} and similar hierarchical structures for artists, and so on.
There is also the problem that the iPod does not display all the data one might want, composer, artists or whatever (and, anyhow, the Gracenote database often has all the details muddled up). This is, I think, what bachlover complained about and then showed how he/she envisaged a better solution.

2) I don't really want to create my music library in the way you suggest, LoisPallister. Once I have imported music into the library from any source, disc, Internet, or whatever, I have no longer any interest in the original source, so I don't want to create playlists which reflect a numbering of the source discs, for example.
What I want is a "database" where my music is accessible via queries specifying the composer and/or the work, perhaps sometimes the artist(s). Really what I have in the back of my mind is The Classical Catalogue (of fond memory) from Gramophone Magazine (the last issue I have was from 1990). That had composer, artist, opera and concert (i.e. collections) indices in a system which I found worked well. I feel that a similarly structured system must be possible on a computer nowadays.

Sadly, we have been landed with software which, though it isn't bad, is far from optimal, particularly for classical music. Here I personally find iTunes much more important than what is displayed on the iPod. The iTunes library is the centre of my musical universe; I can live with the iPod restrictions, more or less, frustrating though they might also be.

Eric

Thinking this through a bit more, it seems to me that we have two 'problems' as far as classical music is concerned and which broadly concurs with your own thoughts.

1) Bring able to structure the data on the classical music in more depth than is available with the iTunes database schema. One can perhaps envisage being able to search for recordings with Rattle as the conductor and the CBSO...maybe even between 1990 and 2000 (or whenever he went to Germany!).

2) Then there is the lack of data displayed on the iPod screen which is very limited for those of us who listen to classical music on the move. The playlist data is a concatenation of the artist field and the album field. Once you select the playlist you then have the Name field displayed. And I can't see this changing, to be honest.

But one thought is to create a relational database of your own choosing and with one extra column that is a unique reference to the tracks on iTunes that correspond to the relational database entry.

For example,

Title Easter
Composer Vaughan Williams
Work 5 Mystical Songs
iTune ref 56

Title I got me flowers
Composer Vaughan Williams
Work 5 Mystical Songs
iTune ref 56

The iTune ref could be held in an iTune field such as album artist. The drawback is that after you have searched your rdb according to what criteria you are interested in, you would need to manually select the tracks within iTunes and then create a playlist from those.

There is also an argument for actually dropping the iTunes ref down another level and so in my example above, it might be a two part ref. So if you wanted just 5 mystical songs then you'd get iTunes ref 56 but if you wanted Easter then you'd need iTunes ref 56 and iTunes ref two = 1, if you get my drift.

Roger,

Yes, I think your two points are the essential problems we face (I got a bit muddled up answering LoisPallister's post and managed to pack them both under the one heading). Plus the fact that the Gracenote database, which is the foundation for the data used by iTunes, does not handle data for classical music satisfactorily.

I have also pondered on the idea of having another program "on top of" iTunes but I haven't really thought the idea through, far less done anything practical about it. I rather fear that it might not bring as much as one hopes, for the data one needs (for an optimal solution) aren't all available in iTunes. And an extra program means extra complication, which is rather off-putting (though I think it should be possible to automate creating the playlist in iTunes for the examples in the last two paragraphs in your post).

I would say that I am about 75% satisfied with iTunes as it is (though grinding my teeth at the needless editing I have to do on the data that come from Gracenote). I live with it and it would mean an awful lot of effort (I suspect) to improve on it.

Well, now you are seeking to change what others expect to find on the iPod. In the case of cover art, if it were much smaller, it would be useless. The stars are there so you can rate different songs on an album then create playlists that include only the best tracks (remember, the majority of iPod users listen to popular music). Popular albums contain songs that are better than others so cannot be treated like a classical work (I don't like this work so the whole thing goes). One can dislike a track or two on an album but otherwise like an album as a whole.

Now, I have most of the information you are seeking for all of my classical tracks. The exceptions are birth/death dates and date of recording. The first seems to me a little over-kill (though I am not "serious" about my classical music). If you are serious about your music, you probably already know the approximate dates and it lends nothing to the enjoyment of the music (plus, it is easily found on your CD liner notes). Regarding the date of recording - this is something that is not unique to classical music. I've often wanted to see the release date of my popular music as well. But, the display is meant only as an overview of what's playing and I know I can look that information up when I get home.

This is the way I have my classical music categorized:

I enter the composer AND the interpreter(s)/performing group in the artist field:
....*Vivaldi, Antonio / Academy of Ancient Music; Hogwood, Beznosiuk
The complete name of the work goes in the album name:
....*Violin Concerti, Op. 12
The movement names/tempi are in the Song name field (with work name included)
....*Violin Concerto op.12 #1 in G minor RV317, I. Allegro

Is this perfect? No. For instance, one cannot search by performer AND composer (I have chosen the composer to be paramount). But the same is true for popular music when a song is performed by two artists, or written by one person and performed by another.

As far as adding more information to the iPod's database - even with preferences, space must be reserved in every record for all possible data. For every byte that is reserved for data, there is one fewer byte available for the storage of music (the iPod's primary purpose is, after all, the storage and playback of music). What you are seeking is a redesign of the basic way the interface works. It's not a matter of simply giving people the choice of what to display, this would require a redesign of the iPod's database to hold ALL of the data that some users may want displayed. I cannot say for certain, but my guess is there are fields in the iTunes database that are not transferred to the iPod for space, speed, and other reasons. And of course, a redesign of iTunes so it "knows" when to transfer expanded info, since older iPods will still be using their old ("debilitated") databases.

Though I am no expert on all MP3 players available, I have yet to see one that offers the storage space and convenience of the iPod with ALL of the display capabilities you desire. For the US$249, you have a pocket sized music player with state of the art storage, that allows access any one of thousands of tracks in seconds, and that displays an overview of what is currently playing.

So, what it really comes down to is creating an interface that is useful and convenient for the *most users*. Does this make classical (or baroque, romantic, or contemporary) music listeners "second class"? Perhaps. But you still get more information on your iPod than you ever did on your portable CD player.

This is another issue not unique to classical music; listeners of popular music have the same issue when an artist has only one album - click the artist and you cannot see the album, you only see the tracks on the album. I believe I have seen this discussed as "by design" and not a bug (personally, in this case, I think the design needs to be changed).

Of course, in both cases (pop or classical music), once you start the first track, all of the relevant info is displayed in the "now playing" screen. I have many instances of "one album artists" in both my popular and classical collections. Yes, it's annoying - but do not take umbrage as a listener of classical music since this effects all musical genres.

There are multiple issues here in that most genres of music don't have as much "meta-data" or levels as classical music. Not only am I huge classical music collector, I also work for a music company and I can tell you, it is getting better all the time but there is:
A) no "official" standard that I know of on how this is done
B) the meta-data sent to apple or when it is "pulled" from the web (CDDB) can be messy. Depending on personal tastes, what works for me may be horrible for someone else. Almost all of my classical content in my iTunes library is CONSTANTLY being massaged so I get it as close to "perfect for me" as I can get. A few tips I've learned which may or may not be helpful to others who have classical music are:

1. For all genres OTHER THAN CLASSICAL - DELETE COMPOSER field. You may be saying "WHAT??? Is he mad???" - While it it isn't a perfect solution, in most genres the ARTIST field is the key field. Think of a good old record store - Beatles albums are filed under "B" for Beatle's. I keep my entire library when it comes to classical as a composer searchable database. Depending on the work you may want to add all of the other people/entities involved such as orchestra, composer, soloists, etc. - I do...but to a point. On large choral pieces such as Mozart's Requiem - the key thing for me is Mozart, album name=work= "Mozart: Requiem" and Artist=conductor in most cases. The tracks then are 1. Mozart: Requiem - I - name of track, etc.

I use Album Artist for the orchestra and in some cases also soloists.

Hope thsi helps.

Steve

Hi Bachlover:

I think I combined two issues - "general classical music data and how to file" and your specific question which, I aplogize, I sort of deviated from - that being "how it displays on an iPod".

I'm now using an iphone and my way appears to accomplish what you are trying to achieve - SORT OF....

I say that because here is what is happening:

1.on my iphone/iphone touch (which I understand may not be what you are using based on your graphic) - I see this in two different ways:
A: When the iphone is "vertical" or NOT USING COVER-FLOW, I see the following from top to bottom:

Jordi Savall (Artist)
Boccherini: Quintetto No.4... (track name but shortened)
Boccherini: Fandango, Sinfonie...(album name - it gets shortened)
and then the full album cover is below it.

B: When the iphone is horizontal and coverflow is used, I see:
The album cover
Le Concert Des Nations (Album Artist)
Quintetto No. 4 in Re Maggiore "Fandango"... (track - much longer)
Boccherini: Fandango, Sinfonie & la Music... (album name - much longer)

If I knew how to post an image on here, I would send it to you and I would also send you an image of both my iTunes screen and how it looks on Apple TV and/or Frontrow.

I hope that helps clarify things a bit. One option that may help may have been mentioned above and that would be two modifications:

Put the main artist along with the Album Artist and
make sure that on the TRACK field, you always start it with the Composer such as:

Track 1: Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 - Movement #1

Good luck and I hope I've helped a bit. If I can figure out h to post images on here, I will be happy to show you how I get thinsg to look as I'm not sure my explanation is as clear as an image.

Steve

Bachlover - you should keep this in mind - after more than two years, there are still actual bugs with the original Classic that Apple has never addressed. Now, I do not expect them to be addressed now (though it would be nice), but if they cannot be bothered to fix bugs that have been reported by many people on this forum, I'm not surprised they have not changed the interface to appease what they feel is a relatively small number of users.

Is it right? No. You're right, it should not be too difficult to allow all lines to scroll.