Color is off on my MBP 17" display - cool/purple bias won't go away
I'm disappointed in the color setup of my new MBP 17" Unibody display, compared with the original (2006) MBP 17" that it's replacing. That old machine looked great right out of the box, but on the new one colors tend towards the cool, with a purple tinge in the highlights. Fleshtones look completely wrong, and the contrast is milky, with lifted blacks.
I've gone through the calibration process several times, and while I've improved the contrast, the cool/purple bias will not go away. I bring up the same photo on my old machine and my new machine, and the old one has natural skin tones and rich contrast, and the new one has purple highlights and off skin tones.
I've been told that perhaps one explanation is the fact that the new machines use LED backlights?
Unless I can get this monitor set up properly it's going to be pretty useless to me. Would a hardware calibration tool such as the Spyder help me get the display profile where I need it to be, or is there something inherent in the display hardware that gives it this odd color palette?
People, people... just because you're having trouble with getting your displays up & running properly, and just because Apple's not (yet?- let's hope!) gone and pro(e)scribed a fix/procedure, such as driver update/calbrate/firmware update/etc., DOES THAT MEAN YOUR DISPLAY'S 'NO GOOD'? NO. It means that Apple's flagship portable product's getting the wrong kind of support from Apple. The historical precedent on this kind of issue after a new product release is legion; I don't know how many of you have used Apple products to make a living with- me, it's going on 22 years. Wanna slag the display? Go ahead. Does that mean the display's incapable of the kind of performance that I manage, somehow, to get outta these displays (UMBP 15" AND 17") all day long, into the hundreds now for both size unibody Macs? No.
There's no doubt, none at all, that there's a serious issue that a small percentage of UMBP users are experiencing. Blaming the product, and, in so doing, ignoring the SUCCESS that most users and deployment specialists/consultants/digital imaging professionals/digital video professionals are experiencing every day may
<meh>... hit the wrong button... '... are experiencing every day may FEEL good, but doing so IGNORES what the overwhelming majority of 17" UMBP users out there are experiencing- the POLAR OPPOSITE of what you are. Does that mean that there's a 'secret', second Apple manufacturing facility, where the GOOD UMBP displays are being churned out? In damning the 17" UMBP's display hardware design & quality, you're either calling the vast majority of 17" UMBP owners, who are having the exact opposite experience, liars or fools or both, OR you're inadvertently pushing the entire '2nd shooter' conspiracy theory of a shadow Apple production line that somehow has avoided supplying YOUR Apple hardware source with the 'good' displays... anyone other than me see the absurdity in this POV?
Or is everyone having an issue with 17" UMBP displays unwilling, in their pain & frustration, to use their forebrain to commit the sin of abstract thought and ALLOW FOR THE POSSIBILITY that they are experiencing, even with plenty of 'me, too!'s on an APPLE FORUM, the exceptions that prove the rule, or at least isolated incidents? Because that is exactly what's happening, no matter how hard you try to equate seeing a different point of view with surrendering your own. This entire 'winner-take-all style of forum discourse threatens to Balkanize these forums into sub-groups of spitball-throwing cliques that reflexively deride each others' POVs, experiences, and ideas as inherently WRONG, because it doesn't *line up exactly* with their own Apple product user/owner narratives. Such a situation's already happening darn near everywhere else on the Web- all you have to do is take a look at most of the other Mac-centric forums, from MacNN to the Mac areas of DV.com, et al, to see the possibility of a vicious and stunted future for Apple 'Support' Discussions. I thought 'Support' meant just that- not just: 'I'm telling MY STORY... OK, now I'm done... NEXT'.
Something anyone affected by the 17" UMBP display issue might want to think about- you're here on these forums for what... telling your story? Commiserating with others who're having similar issues? Arguing? Primarily trying to convince others of your POV? Helping others and also learning valuable insights and 411 yourself?
Ahem.. I like to think I'm in, as much as I can, THAT group... =^P Why go on a Support Forum and just draw a conclusion that's guaranteed to more provocative than accurate, flame-bait rather than a valuable post that represents the attitude of 'any advice?'
My point's simple- if you're spending valuable time & effort posting here and reading others' posts here, would it kill ya to lighten up a little, admit, perhaps, that your <conclusions> may be beside the point, and your ability to ask questions and process answers in the time-honored, good-faith, mutually respectful manner that forums REQUIRE in order to offer anyone other than partisan proto-bloggers a place where respectful, 'my POV isn't the only valid one' discussions produce insights, answers, reference material, legacy information, and a great place to learn, discuss, and LISTEN?
i am having the same issue with the display on my new 17 inch UMBP. it has a bluish tint and i can't get it to go away. does anyone have any insights on this issue? has anyone had their display replaced? has this fixed it?
Have you done, or had done, a good, thorough hardware color calibration, to 6500 Kelvin white point and 2.2 Gamma? If you're unfamiliar with these terms, have someone do your color calibration with an Eye-One Photo, Spyder Elite 3, etc., who
is familiar not only with these terms, but in how to handle the specific requirements of this glass-covered, wide-gamut display. It's NOT 'your father's LCD display,' and should be treated by anyone who hardware-calibrates it to an ICC standard display calibration as the anomaly that it is, or else they will fail to get this display to do what it's meant to do- provide an accurate, professionally usable ProPhoto sized gamut lcd display that'll compliment the best desktop monitors out there, Apple's new 24" LED ACD inclusive, while in the field.
Try the above- if it doesn't have a profound effect on your display's appearance and performance, replace the entire unit, if possible, or at least have the LCD replaced, again, if possible.
I't's almost a certainty that your display's never even come close to being set up properly.
There have been similar posts to this before and my understanding is that it is not possible to properly calibrate the glossy macbook pro's with external hardware such as spyder etc. I believe the problem is due to the distance between the screen and the glass. I used to have the glossy 17" but as I work in photography I changed it to the matte version. This is now fine, easy to calibrate and best of all no reflections.
Thanks for the info. Sorry, I forgot to mention that I have the matt display UMBP. Other than that it is the standard configuration. I have tried various methods to calibrate the display, to no avail. I have even tried other peoples ICC profiles, and it is a no go. The whites and grays have a purple/blue cast that will simply not go away. Even the blacks are a bit purple and washed out. It is really… um… not good to say the least.
I have also done a clean install, wiping the drive completely before installing from the DVDs.
Usually I can get reasonable colour just using the Apple colour calibration tools – with out fancy hardware. If I use the Apple calibration set up (either 1.8 gamma or 2.2 gamma) it looks really hideous. I have never seen an Apple display this far out of whack before.
I just got off the line with Apple tech support and the woman that I spoke with said that the issue points to logic board failure, related to the Nvidia chip sets. Sigh.
I have compared my unit to another 17 inch UMBPS (glossy display) and the issue is the same. The colour cast issue was really noticeable when I compared it to the new Apple Cinema Display.
Anyway, if any one has any helpful tips or has found a resolution, please post.
Untrue; those rumors began with people, several of them magazine writers with more experience regurgitating manufacturers' ad copy and/or half-baked internet chatter, that the Apple glass displays, whether UMBPs or ACD (new, 24") cannot be properly calibrated using Spyder Elite 3s or, more particularly, a more active calibration device (not the some passive colorimeters of many low-end hardware calibrators) of the Gretag MB Eye-One Photo. The best colorimeter type solution is the Eye-One Display 2, although a properly used Spyder Elite 3 will also produce good results, certainly miles ahead of the mess you so ably describe! For the matte-screened option on the 17" UMBPs, the following is much less relevant than for the glossy UMBPs, for reasons that'll become evident in moment...
The key in all cases is to take and ambient light reading prior to the final calibration, Gamma and white-point settings. For the glass displays, use a dark room and take the ambient light reading with a colorimeter such ads the inexpensive, GMB Eye-One Display 2, since that's the best $230.00 or so candidate with great Mac software.
The issue you describe can be analyzed by a fifth-grader with a fundamental understanding of light refraction and the sometimes prismatic effect of the 'LCD under glass' construction of the UMBPs. The ambient light has to be sourced first, so the hardware calibrator can 'compensate' for the probably unconventional lighting condition (darkness) of the ambient light situation, THEN it can proceed to an accurate result.
Note that this entire issue can ONLY be properly addressed via <hardware> calibration methods; the Apple software 'calibration' method's fine for getting certain displays into the very large ballpark of acceptable
apparent color, but, as with the old days of OS 7 through 9 of Adobe Gamma Control Panels (remember those, anyone?), it's more of a parlor trick than a method of display calibration.
The folks who haven't thought this basic ambient light+glass layer+prismatic effect+discolored display concept through, and I'll be the first to admit that in many other cases concerning computers, I've sometimes been just as myopic.
Except for the rare (I get
maybe 1 in 400, now, after the equally rare step of my having to return to a client's shop and repeat the hardware calibration process) that falls, even after proper hardware calibration, even slightly outside ICC normative color space 'center',This above is equally relevant to the next poster as well.. I succeed every day at providing clients with color-accurate displays, from the 15: UMBPs to the matte and glossy 17" UMBPs. It's usually
not the hardware; it's the wetware! ;^)
In my estimate the colour should be usable “out of the box” so to speak. I mean think of all the people using iPhoto on this thing or the hobby photographer using Aperture.
As I see it, there are two issues here. One is the fact that the display will not calibrate properly with the Apple software. Two, the display will not calibrate with the use of third party hardware calibration (your mileage may vary).
For the person who is taking their unit to the store to have it looked at, can you please post back and let us know what the findings are? If I remember correctly, a person in another thread said a screen replacement fixed the issue.
I think you're fooling yourself if you believe that ANY laptop/notebook computer's going to have acceptably good color right out of the box. No one, to my knowledege, has ever said that one would. In fact, the word 'usable' has so many meanings to so many different users that the word 'adjustable', or 'customizable' might make more sense in this context, considering the vast array personal preferences, not to mention the vast array of consumer output devices through which a typical neophyte and consumer-level user's iPhoto file will pass.
Yes, there are a lot of people using iPhoto and Aperture, and they should at least know enough to be able to set up their monitor/displays for basic printing purposes, a process so simple these days that printer manufacturers are trying to get rid of the 'computer' step of the printing process altogether, pushing the insanely 'un-great', paper-wasting method of inserting your camera's SD card directly into the printer (usually a flimsily constructed life-support system for draining expensive ink cartridges), a process so basic that six-year olds, working in groups of 4 or 5, after a sugary mid-morning snack, . Simple technical literacy enough to effectively use either program is plenty sufficient to do so. To expect less of these new owners/users is foolish,as I've taught second-graders how to do so; I certainly expect adults to be able to catch up with *these 'lil whippersnappers!;^)
I've gotta clear something up right now, concerning the relative value of the Apple software System Preferences color calibration control panel... my son, who' in first grade, and has pretty much taught himself the basics of Macs on his own, refined the color display on his older sister's MacBook (2.4 Ghz Unibody), solving what he calls 'way too big Reds' on the family's networked Epson R2400 using his eyes and the Apple software to do the ('Expert' tab) basic color-calibration on a new Apple 'notebook' (I still use them on my lap just fine, with no singed legs), is adequate to produce a flexible method towards perceptually accurate color output. To get pretty good results 'out of the box' with simple photo prints is a matter of luck, not reasonable expectations. Just because, however, your UMBP has colors that don't look good 'right out of the box', or your UMBP's display doesn't yet seem to react well to Apple's System Prefs color calibration (remember- 'Expert' tab ONLY), doesn't mean your UMBP's junk and needs a new display, although many here will screech that it's no good as a product unless its colrs are 'spot-on' right out of the box. There's a HUGE market for color-calibration devices, and the push is 'down-scale' ever more, every day, with this equipment, and a LOT of it is being sold to Mac owners, and it's NOT because they have marginal equipment that's somehow fundamentally lacking in basic capabilities.
The next level up is quite a steep step; hardware calibration to which I've been referring is the
first step, not the last. I'm referring to professional, color-critical image editing, publishing, etc., all uses to which no notebook computer should be reasonably expected to be the sole source of output files; rather, a well-calibrated notebook with an the hardware to reproduce printed and viewed with any reasonable degree of accuracy at all is only a component in a larger CMS ecosystem. In other words, anyone expecting to print a 4/4 coated color magazine from Quark, Illustrator and Photoshop files to a Heidelberg press off of a notebook computer is delusional. That said, a simple puck and 50 MB of good software, for example the GMB Eye-One Display is all you need to get WAY closer to no more 'too big Reds, or 'Blues', or 'Magentas', et al... the next step, how to properly calibrate to an ICC CMS standard both your acquisition (scanner, etc.) and your output devices (printers), is the next step, and a full-lown CMS that encompasses the ICC output profiles of specific devices, like your printers' vast offset 6-color press, the step after that.
One final word- the notion many here on this forum seem to hold, that 'because I have this issue, ans some others here have that
sameor similar, issue that it must be a defective, recall -worthy product line, or that hundreds of thousands of other users of these same products must be experiencing these same issues as well is wrong. The folks on this forum have sought out this place to communicate about, well, issues and questions with and about their Macs- it's not a cross-section of ALL Mac owners' product experiences, or the results of some nationwide Mac Owners Poll, or even an accurate microcosm of all MacBook Pro owners, for example- it's more like a microSYSTEM, where specific kinds of users gather with similar users and talk about very specific types of issues and experiences, some of which they share, some of which they do not. But to conflate THIS place with the rest of the MacBook Pro kingdom is a mistake, and a common one hereabouts. Remember that MOST users out there do NOT have such issues, whatever reinforcement for your issue you might find here- you, and the rest of us, are a small group, not the subjects of a national forum of all Mac users, or even any more than a
few Mac users... don't let your perceptions of the rest of the Mac world become 'MUG'ed' (sorry- couldn't resist) =^D
Oh, yeah... when I first make mention of six-year olds in my last post, I'm referring to some first-graders I worked with at a local Grammar School, and the project with which they so ably grappled, despite the sugary snacks they had just consumed was one where they tried, by themselves, with minimal supervision (helping them jam an ink-cartridge into a printer without breaking the cartridge OR the printer, only that sort of thing), to print their iPhoto pictures from the class Macs (which I'd donated, installed, networked, and configured gratis)... the truncated sentence from my previous post should have gone on to say all this- hope this clears that up! ;^)
These first-graders dicovered the Apple Colr Calibration Control Panel, and checked the 'Expert' tab, after I discovered that I'd never calibrated the 20" ACDs I'd donated to print properly to the late-model 8-ink color inkjet printers with which this lucky school was blessed... the kids set the displays up, without any adult supervision whatsoever... OK, with the help of their wonderful kids' 'super-vision', but nothing else... the prints, after only a few tries, came out beautifully!
as a professional, i am perfectly aware of how to calibrate a screen. the screen is resistant to colour correction. the blue/purple bias will not go away. i can get it to diminish, but not to any acceptable level. as you are probably aware apple abides by ICC colour standards. and usually their colour “ballpark” is very good for that reason.
in my case the colour is in a different city, never mind the ballpark. for historical reference their have been similar problems with macbook pros in the past. except in that instance the screens were yellow.
it may appear simple minded to start with the non-expert colour calibration method, however, the basic screen calibration gives a great deal of useful information, and creates a level starting point for all users. in this case the information that i have gathered is that my display has a blue/purple tint out of the box and will not calibrate using the standard method.
this tells me one of three things. (1) the display is defective. (2) there is a possible internal hardware failure. (3) the software and/or colour profile is buggy.
if anyone has any helpful info on how they resolved this issue, please share. i’ll post back with my findings too.
The fact that you're a 'professional', in this context, doesn't mean a thing- being a professional and knowing how to hardware calibrate a display- one doesn't necessarily follow the other. In fact, most 'professionals' don't know the first thing about expertly analyzing ICC- spec CMS, hardware calibration of various displays, etc.
You're all over the map with theories about the glass being disruptive to accurate readings with the Syder 3 Elite, etc., and if it sounds as if I'm presuming you're aware of how to calibrate a display, but not a professional at the entire process, from a single display to an entire CMS over 1200 or so mixed Macs and PCs, I am. I've been doing the latter, for output to the same presses Newsweek and Communication Arts use, to name a few, for 15 years.
Pardon me if I got your area of expertise wrong. I agree with your assessment, BTW. I doubt it's #3, but the list seems to neatly fit, from most likely to least likely, the causes of your display issue.
You need a replacement. Not of the screen, the Mobo, or the software- a replacement computer, asap. I'm working on my ACT, ACMT, and ACSP, but, as you obviously know, it doesn't take MY Curriculum Vitae to figure that out, eh? ;^)
Get, by hook or by crook, another dern notebook, brother- that's the only way to get 'back into the ballpark', IMO- you're right!
just to clarify, i do not have a glass display i have a matt display. i simply compared my matt display to a glass one (17" UMBP) and it had the same issue. the new 24" ACD that i also looked at was fairly close after basic calibration. both the 17" UMBPs were way out of whack though.
the thing that concerns me about going for a replacement is that i think apple gives people refurbs, not new ones. why would you go for replacement rather than repair?
I'm not aware of Apple shipping refurbs instead of new product on replacement; I know that, like so many seemingly arbitrary issues with Apple's ill-defined overall refund/repair policies, a great deal of (too much?) discretion's often given to the Tech (phone), or Manager (Apple Store), involved with the first encounter where a Case Number's generated...
If you have suspicions about this, re: refurbs are shipped when a new replacement's promised, I'd definitely go for the repair. OTOH, if there's a way you can verify that a new replacement's going to come back to you in a new box after you ship the pre-paid box back to them (I wish that NEW Mac laptops came in that box; it seems sturdier & safer than the retail box!), I'd go with that- I suggested that so it would address all 3 issues at once- display, Mobo/GPU card, software.
This is a really complex situation encased in a 'straightforward' wrapper... I understand how frustrating this is, as this scenario describes the nexus of new-model, largely untested in the field technology, QC, customer service, Apple return/repair policies, and customer satisfaction/professional requirements.
