Level 1

13 points

Music fonts (and spacing)

Hi all,

I've searched many music and computer music forums and can't find a music font that is designed for (or at least, will work correctly) with text documents. I do a lot of writing about music, and am looking for a better solution than using the pound sign and lower case B when referring to, e.g., C# and Eb.

There are plenty of music fonts, but it seems they are all designed for the particular notation program: Sibelius, Finale, Lime, Logic, etc. When I use them in line, that is, a sentence in Times then switch fonts for one character, it screws up the spacing, making the line take up more space. Even if I decrease the font size or superscript them, they take up too much space.

Here is an example:
http://fileserver.music.utah.edu/~dcottle/Music/Musicintext.png

In reverse order of importance:

1) How can I fix this with the fonts I'm using? I know how to set the exact spacing in Word, but am new to Pages.

2) Forcing the spacing is a kluge. I really should be using fonts that are spaced correctly. Where can I find a font with graceful, engraved music characters but intended to be used as text?

3) Why does it do that? The sharp and flats I use are the same size as the other characters in the regular font. Why do music fonts take so much space?

MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.4.7)

Posted on Aug 29, 2009 11:38 AM

60 replies

Tom Gewecke

Level 10

122,112 points

Aug 30, 2009 3:33 AM in response to David Cottle

So now maybe you can answer this: where do I learn the key combination so I can just type it in as I would, say, an accent grave? KeyboardViewer is supposed to help you find the key mappings, but Arial isn't listed, and I don't think it would show the sharp character.

All Unicode fonts have the same key mappings, so it does not matter and Keyboard Viewer is of no use, because things like sharp and flat are not included in any normal keyboard. To do what you what, you need to create a custom layout using Ukelele, which is really quite simple.

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?siteid=nrsi&itemid=ukelele

I could easily make one for you if you want, if I knew on which key you wanted the special symbols (my email is tom at bluesky dot org).

David Cottle Author

Level 1

13 points

Aug 30, 2009 7:51 AM in response to Tom Gewecke

Very slick. Now that you mention it, I guess I knew you could remap a keyboard, but didn't know about Ukelele. I've glanced through the manual, and it looks very powerful.

So if I understand correctly, I could make the natural, flat, and sharp replace some characters that I probably won't use very often? Let's say, option-a, s, and d? I don't think I would ever use those characters and if I did, I can still switch inputs, or use the character palette, correct? I assume I can rename it. And could I change the icon by digging into its contents?

I'll learn it eventually, but if you could fire one off for me, that would be great. Set option-a to natural, option-s to sharp, and option-d to flat.

I'll send my email directly.

David Cottle Author

Level 1

13 points

Aug 31, 2009 10:46 AM in response to Tom Gewecke

ARGGHH!!!! ALL of these, even the ones that look nice (Arial Unicode) change the line height. WHY IS THIS!!??!? In addition, you can't do bold or italics in Unicode (the one that looks best). Even if I switch fonts in the middle (from Times to Arial Unicode), it raises the line height slightly. But it doesn't have to: the accidentals are the same height as the other characters. Even if I make the accidental 9 points, the height of the line is still larger. I just don't get it. Are these font designers overlooking some fundamental detail, or is there any rational reasoning for making music fonts take up more vertical space? The Times accidentals make the spacing below that line larger. Why?? There's no reason. It's as if someone came down to their office and said "hey, maybe we should throw in some music symbols just to look like we're being thorough." But no-one testing them or ever uses them.

So I revert to one of my original questions: what can I do in Pages to force the line height? Or am I just going to have to design my own fonts?

!http://fileserver.music.utah.edu/~dcottle/Music/Spacing.png!

Tom Gewecke

Level 10

122,112 points

Aug 31, 2009 11:02 AM in response to David Cottle

You don't get line changes if the entire text is, for example, in Arial Unicode, do you? While Pages can't produce Bold/Italic with that, I think Word and the free OpenOffice can. They are of course generated rather than real variations, but might meet your needs.

David Cottle Author

Level 1

13 points

Aug 31, 2009 11:18 AM in response to Tom Gewecke

No, but in Times it does, and below the line. That's what I don't get. Everything I've published until last year was done in Word. I switched to Pages hoping it would measure up, but maybe not. (The other thing I really miss is find and replace styles and formatting, which would have been handy here.) It's hard to believe there's no way to force the spacing in Pages. That would be a good enough solution for me to switch between Times (which I can italicize) and Arial (which has nice sharps and flats).

Badunit

Level 7

30,444 points

Aug 31, 2009 11:47 AM in response to David Cottle

You may have to make a compromise. Meiryo is one that has bold, italic, etc. I personally think the flat symbol is too far away from the note letter in this font but you can adjust it closer. Select the note letter, reduce the character spacing and then define that as a character style. Adjusting another will then be a one-click operation. And, yes, I know this is not an ideal solution. What you really want is to find the ideal font.

I am not an expert on fonts but I would guess that the music symbol fonts you see in Special Characters are the only fonts that actually have music symbols and a default font is being substituted in for the others. That is why the line spacing gets hosed when you are using Times and others. Watch the music symbols when you change fonts, you'll see that they look exactly the same with most font selections.

David Cottle Author

Level 1

13 points

Aug 31, 2009 12:04 PM in response to Badunit

Yeah, and even this compromise is a huge step forward. At least I can use them, and Arial isn't bad. And I really don't want to go back to Word because I've converted so many documents and there's a lot to like about Pages.

But this question still remains: can't I force the height in Pages?

Tom Gewecke

Level 10

122,112 points

Aug 31, 2009 12:18 PM in response to Badunit

I would guess that the music symbol fonts you see in Special Characters are the only fonts that actually have music symbols

Aside from Apple Symbols, what you see are ordinary text fonts that include the accidentals symbols as well as normal Latin and thus should work well with them. The problem is that most these fonts are normally only used for Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. In 10.6, two standard fonts do have them -- Arial Unicode MS and Menlo. Unfortunately Arial Unicode has no bold or italic and Menlo, which does have bold and italic, is monospaced.

David Cottle Author

Level 1

13 points

Aug 31, 2009 12:18 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan

I KNEW it. I just didn't know where to click. And of course even a cursory glance at the Help files would have revealed this. Pages is so intuitive in other ways I thought it would be more obvious. And there wasn't a box around "single" indicating a pull down menu. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking with it.

Problem solved. Thanks!

(Though I'm still urked that so few fonts take these symbols seriously. As a former pen and ink copyist, manuscript is at least half art. It has to look right.)

KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,819 points

Aug 31, 2009 12:27 PM in response to David Cottle

My guess is that you missed the page 89 of Pages User Guide (in the English version).

I got it searching for the very obscure keyword "spacing".

Read also pages 86…

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 31 août 2009 21:27:35

David Cottle Author

Level 1

13 points

Aug 31, 2009 12:47 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan

Results I wanted:

!http://fileserver.music.utah.edu/~dcottle/Music/closer.png!

Now can anyone solve the search and replace styles? (That way I could type them all in Times then switch them to Arial all at once.) This time I read the help files and the closest I can find is copy and paste character style, which I'd still have to do by hand. The find and replace dialog has nothing about formatting.

Badunit

Level 7

30,444 points

Aug 31, 2009 4:31 PM in response to David Cottle

Assuming you have enough of them to replace to make this worthwhile, you can use Search and Replace, advanced mode. You'll have to do each symbol type separately. You'll replace a # with a # but for the replacement you can also select your character style.

Aug 31, 2009 5:45 PM in response to PeterBreis0807

PeterBreis0807 wrote:
David

Are you after Linespacing ? :

+Inspector > Text (T) > Text > Spacing > Line > click on little arrows under the field to choose how applied+

Peter

Yeah, must have!

Badunit

Level 7

30,444 points

Aug 31, 2009 5:55 PM in response to PeterBreis0807

Okay then, we all missed the detail in YOUR post. Regardless of who was first, I learned something today. Well, two things: 1) there are additional selections for line spacing and 2) be careful with the kudos lest someone else feel slighted.

Aug 31, 2009 6:01 PM in response to Badunit

Not chasing kudos, but I do wonder why I sometimes bother posting when everyone blithely goes on regardless. Then "discovers" the obvious.

Mustn't get onto the touchy subject of comprehension.

P.

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Music fonts (and spacing)