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Problem with Numbers App

I have two versions of Numbers on my Mac: Numbers 09 version 2.1 (436); Numbers 3.5.2 (2118)


I kept Numbers 09 because I liked it much more than the newer version. It continued to work well with documents that had been created on it. With some other spreadsheet documents I would get the message "The document *****.numbers is invalid. The index.xml file is missing". When this happened I would close Numbers 09 and open the other one, and the file would open. This worked very satisfactorily.


Now something new is happening. When I try to opencertainvNumbers files made in version 3.5.2 I get this message: "You need a newer version of Numbers to open this spreadsheet".


When I go to the App store and try and upgrade Numbers, which I have done several times, nothing happens. The little wheel spins indefinitely, and the app won't download. Also I notice the new version has a rating of 2.5 stars, which is not very encouraging.


There appears to be a certain randomness about what happens. I've tried to narrow down exactly what happens in exactly what conditions, but in doing so inconsistent things appear to happen.


Can anyone out there help?!


I'm using a 2009 21" iMac running el Capitan 10.11.6

iMac 21.5", 10.11

Posted on Feb 5, 2019 1:37 AM

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Posted on Feb 6, 2019 7:30 PM

There's also this: https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-13571

which mentions this: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/disk-utility/partition-a-physical-disk-dskutl14027/mac


Partition your disk to have the option to boot up in an older OSX where your Numbers 09 will still work.

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18 replies

Feb 5, 2019 6:53 AM in response to SGIII

Thanks SGIII. I'm sure that's the right and practical solution, and I won't go into now why I resist 'upgrades' until I'm actually forced to make them—there are good reasons, believe me, but I wonder whether you, or anyone else can answer these questions:


  1. Why can't a piece of software sitting physically in my computer, not open a document it made some time before, particularly since it appears to have no problem opening Excel files sent to me by email from a MS Windows computer?
  2. What is an index.xml file, what would make it be 'missing', and if it is around somewhere, how might it be found?
  3. If the answer to the first question is that Apple must have told my computer to send that message every time I try to open such a file, how would it do that? If it has done it, it must have embedded it in my computer, because the message still comes when I'm not connected to the internet.

These things I'd really like to know.

Feb 5, 2019 6:10 PM in response to Just me then


  1. Why can't a piece of software sitting physically in my computer, not open a document it made some time before, particularly since it appears to have no problem opening Excel files sent to me by email from a MS Windows computer?


Opening MS Excel files is a completely different issue. Excel's transition from .xls to .xlsx preceded the release of Numbers 2, and there has been no significant change in the Excel file format since that transition. Numbers 2, and all subsequent versions include file translation code to translate Excel files to the Numbers file format being used when that version of Numbers was current. Those translators continue to work today as Excel's file format has not changed in that time. Not that the translation is not perfect. Any feature of Excel not supported in Numbers (and vice-versa when exporting the Numbers file to Excel format) will not be included in the translation.


2 What is an index.xml file, what would make it be 'missing', and if it is around somewhere, how might it be found?

Numbers 2 files are actually a package of several files, including an index.xml file specific to each document.

Apple changed to a simpler file format for Numbers 3 and its successors. one that did NOT include an index.xml file.

You will see the "index.xml file missing" message only when you attempt to use Numbers 2 (which requires that file) to open a document last saved from any later version of Numbers.


Regarding your posted issue: "You need a newer version of Numbers to open this spreadsheet"

The usual cause here is that the file was made, or was edited or was saved from a later version of Numbers for Mac, any version of Numbers for iCloud, or any version of Numbers for iOS.

Neither of the Numbers applications you have on your Mac is compatible with the current iCloud or iOS versions.


If the answer to the first question is that Apple must have told my computer to send that message every time I try to open such a file, how would it do that? If it has done it, it must have embedded it in my computer, because the message still comes when I'm not connected to the internet.

The error messages are built in to the operating system and/or the applications. Thy recognize that the document you are attempting to open is not made for 'this' version of Numbers (even though the .numbers file extension tells the OS to attempt to open it with Numbers).


Regards,

Barry



Feb 8, 2019 3:28 PM in response to Just me then

Yes, I think I had my first Mac experience around the same time as you, so it is indeed a joy when someone else remembers the evolution (it’s not just you then). Every single example you give, I too have experienced. Thanks to SG for the tip on holding down the option key in File. One small victory. But not being able to open existing files in any version (without resorting to a disk partition) is so disappointing.


Certain functionalities and UI simplicity do seem to be sacrificed at times in Mac software (and yes I agree that Pages is by far the worst). It may look sleeker and processing faster is great, but at the end of the day, when we’ve been working in these spreadsheets for years and just need to rely on them to keep working under the crunch, keep it simple always rules. Having a one-click shortcut on a customizable toolbar is as simple as it gets.


Numbers 09/2:

That second format toolbar was right there at my fingertips. Now they are marooned in the inspector which I must open, take up more screen space, and then click through the variety of tabs to find. Especially the data formatting. These things slow me down now.


Numbers 5.2:

That's it. Customization is, for lack of a better descriptor, a joke. There are 42 shortcuts. In my version of Excel there are over 300 - you can customize every single thing and even create your own buttons, macros, menus, and keyboard shortcuts. So that little format bar in the older Numbers was a step in the right direction but now it's dropped.


As for Pages, I don’t think Apple cares about word processing anymore - it’s peanuts. They seem to spend more time messing with TextEdit and Notes now.

Feb 5, 2019 5:09 AM in response to Just me then

If you want a good experience using modern versions of Numbers you're probably going to have to consider using a Mac less than 10 years old and running a reasonably recent version of MacOS!


I wouldn't pay too much attention to the ratings of 2.5 stars. The newest version of Numbers, running on a machine and OS version it is designed for, is in my opinion superior to 2.3 and certainly better than 2.1.


SG

Feb 5, 2019 7:45 AM in response to Just me then

That xml file is required by that 10-year-old “orphanware” you are still trying to use. That format hasn’t been used for years now. It’s as simple as that: you’re using outdated software to try to open a more modern format.


Resisting upgrades for years, even a decade, may seem to save money. But it comes with a price. You won’t have the good experience you might otherwise have.


SG





Feb 6, 2019 1:01 AM in response to Barry

Thank you Barry for your very thorough and helpful answer. But I'm still puzzled. I used to be able to open documents made (by me, on my own computer) in Numbers 09 with Numbers 09, and I still can; I could also open documents made in Numbers 2 in numbers 2. I haven't made any documents in any subsequent version, because I haven't upgraded. So why am I now unable to open those documents, getting the 'you need a newer version' message instead?

Feb 6, 2019 6:55 PM in response to Just me then

Yes, Numbers 09 was a superior spreadsheet experience (and, imho, Pages 09 was too). I have been doing the same thing for years with increasing difficulty, including re the .xml thing. Apple really really wants us to upgrade, but I know your pain - it's not an upgrade when, with each successive update, there are more features missing. Officially I can no longer open old Pages files in Pages 09 (same message about needing the newer version to open), even after carefully shielding them from ever knowing about the newer Pages' existence. I am afraid this is about to happen to my old Numbers files too. I'm seriously thinking of checking out Office Libre or doing something really radical like changing teams to Linux.

Feb 6, 2019 7:23 PM in response to emby

I've read the old Pages had many features that are still missing in the new Pages. But, having used both, I think it is really hard to substantiate the statement that Numbers 2 provided a "superior spreadsheet experience" to the current Numbers (5.3). In my experience Numbers 5.3 is faster, has a more consistent interface, a fuller formula set and has most (if not all) the features of Numbers 2 plus it can do many things that Numbers 2 cannot do. Plus it works cross platform on iOS, something Excel clones like LibreOffice cannot do.


For a full spreadsheet experience with the ability to work with large datasets across platforms, there is of course Excel, which is excellent on the Mac and on iOS. But the new Numbers is a worthy competitor for many personal and small business projects.


SG



Feb 6, 2019 7:36 PM in response to SGIII

I think the main problem for me in Numbers is the clickity click click click because the toolbar up top doesn't have the same breadth of options and I can't customize it to the same degree as before (in Numbers 09... I don't know about 2). Therefore, I have to open the inspector and click click click to find stuff. Maybe I'm just getting old. Yeah, Excel remains the powerhouse I know. That's where I've been too cheap to pay for an upgrade there. Plus I always loved Apple apps and just want them to grow old with me.

Feb 7, 2019 2:31 AM in response to emby

Oh what joy to find someone on this Forum who agrees that upgrades are often more like downgrades. ‘Improvements’ are almost always impoverments. This has been my experience since I first started using a Mac in 1991. I was overwhelmed by the elegance, simplicity, intuitiveness, immense functionality and virtual absence of bugs and faults in System 7, which is where I came in. The journey has been consistently downhill ever since, though of course the widespread use of the internet forced certain inevitable changes, which I accept cheerfully. It’s the gratuitous and pointless changes, random, unnecessary redesigns of the interface, ‘streamlining’ forcing you to search for some dot on the screen somewhere, which you have to click to open up options that used to be in plain sight, for even an inexperienced user to see.


SG asks for an example of a loss of functionality: Every wordprocessor or page layout software (including Pages 4.0) I’ve ever used had some more or less universal options in the File menu: Open; Close; Save; Save As; Export, maybe, Revert, etc.


Save As enabled you to duplicate, rename (if you wanted to), change the location of (if you wanted to) a document in one simple operation. It was one of the mose useful functions of the software. In Pages 4.1, to do the same thing you have to perform three separate operations Duplicate, Rename and Move to, involving sometimes having to navigate towhere you want to move it to rather than it staying where it is by default. While on that subject, when you use Rename, and click Save, as you do, by instinct, the changed name disappears and you have to do it all over again, eventually realising that you can save only by hitting the return key. This is sloppy, careless design, undertaken for no apparent reason or benefit.


Where in 4.0 you used to click Export, to create a PDF, for example, you had a couple of clicks to make and there was your document, by default in the same location as the original, unless you had opted to move it somewhere else. In Pages 4.1 the exported document is liable to go by default to some entirely different location; I haven’t yet figured out what rules the software is following, but the former arrangement was better by a country mile, trust me.


SG makes the point that the improvements lie in the improved cross-platform compatibility etc. That may represent an improvement, for some people, but it comes at a cost to the former quality of the software in question, which for many people is not a price worth paying.


There are counterparts in Numbers to all the points I have made about Pages. And for me you are absolutely right that Numbers 09 was a superior spreadsheet experience. A spreadsheet is a spreadsheet; its basic functions should be universal. It would take me too much time to go through and remind myself of all the impovverments and annoyances in the latest version I've got, but its not being able to open documents I've made on it is high on the list.


Bring back Clarisworks



Feb 7, 2019 2:49 AM in response to Just me then

I was referring to Numbers, not Pages. I understand the latest Pages still lacks much of the functionality of the old Pages. Not so with Numbers, with the one big exception that it is not as good at highly formatted, printed output, if you need that. In most other respects I would say it easily equals or surpasses the old Numbers.


Note that 'Save As' is there, the same as always, in both Numbers and Pages. Just hold down the option key when you choose the File menu.


Sometimes when you're focused on how things are not as good as they were in the past, instead of learning how to use the new, you can miss things that are right there in front of you.😀


SG


Feb 7, 2019 3:29 AM in response to SGIII

Hello SG, thanks for the tip about Save As. That's very helpful. I appreciate the temptation to imagine the old days were always better, and try to guard against it. I remember once hankering for the days of proper razors, rather than 'these ****** disposable ones with multiple blades'. Then I bought one; it was a nightmare. That was an interesting lesson. Although a fully engaged person such as you is much more on the ball and adept at adjusting to the changes, many computer users are not so engaged, and just want people not to interfere with the very good tool they've already spent good money to acquire. I still say that many of the changes are unnecessary, badly done, or simply corrections to the previous change that was badly thought out. I'm not against the changes, I suppose I'm against the built in obsolesence, for commercial reasons, of things that ain't broke and don't need fixing

Feb 7, 2019 6:09 PM in response to emby

Hi J',


SG's almost correct with "Note that 'Save As' is there, the same as always,"


Save As… was removed and replaced with Duplicate in Lion (OS X 10, and was not present in the new Numbers and Pages released around the same time. The disappearance, along with several (100+ in the case of Pages) caused great consternation, rending of garments and gnashing of teeth in these forums. Save As… was returned to the File menu in Mountain Lion, but now required pressing option to reveal or choose Save As… rather than Duplicate.


Regards,

Barry

Problem with Numbers App

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