Issue with Proximity Sensor during calls - Continued.

Gotta say I think it's wrong for Apple to be deleteing posts or locking threads if there is an open issue with their product. That said, there is also a difference between discussing an open issue objectively and discussing percieved issues with Apple's responses (or lack thereof), and some of the vociferous drum banging that goes on that is neither constructive nor warranted and should be weeded out.

Yes there is an issue and people want to discuss it and have it addressed. But banging on about it, day in day out repeating the same old **** does no-one any good and only fills the forum threads up with meaningless ranting.

If you want Apple to treat you sensibly, be sensible. If you want them to continue treating you like children who need to be told to shut up, then keep on doing what you're doing. That is why they are doing what they are doing. I cannot condone it, but then I cannot condone the some of the cr@p that's getting posted over and over on the forum either.

Put this in perspective - The phone has been out three and a half weeks. 90% of you work for companies who don't think twice about refusing to pay their bills and screwing subcontractors by witholding payments three and a half weeks. You have a right to get this p!ssed after the fault has been blankly ignored for a few months. Until then, you only deserve to be treated in the same manner in which any other business deals with commercial issues in the western world.

I hope they've at least thought about mentioning the proximity sensor issue today. I can get my bars to drop with the death grip, but I can't get the phone to drop calls with it. However, I can hang up, mute, and put calls on hold with my cheek. Before I read up on the proximity sensor issue, I just assumed it was the antenna problem dropping the calls!

I'm assuming Apple is calling this press conference as a PR move. I hope they thought of all of the possible scenarios.

Free Bumpers - many people are already saying the bumpers don't fix the antenna issues for them. These may be those who don't realize they are having proximity sensor issues. These people will get even more irked and will become more vocal about the bumpers not working. More bad PR.

In-store fix (internal bumper?) - why would I take time for an in-store fix if I might just have to return the handset or get another subsequent in-store fix if it turns out that the proximity sensor issue is hardware related? More bad PR.

Exchange for new handset with internal bumper - that's fine, but will it still have the proximity sensor issue?

Extended return window - People will still rush to return the handsets because the proximity sensor issue as well as the antenna issue prevents the phone from working properly. People aren't willing to live with a phone that drops calls or facedials. If it turns out to be a software issue, still, people won't hold on to these problematic phones until Sept (or maybe even later) for a software fix.

In general - the press may eventually pick up on this potential mixup as to why calls are dropping. Then, even more bad press that Apple didn't figure that out or they just hid it at the press conference.

Also, is Consumer Reports done testing the phone? Are they aware of the proximity sensor issues? Can they still do a test?

Either way, I don't get why they would stay silent on the issue, even if they don't have a fix. It could just lead to more bad PR. I take it that the purpose of this press conference is to minimize the bad PR. If they stay silent, and the issue continues to brew, what are they going to do, schedule another press conference? I would think a separate press conference at a later time (which makes it look like it took them even longer to acknowledge/attempt to fix the problem) would make them only look worse just by general perception.

Just mention it today - get it all done in one shot. We need to know what our options are as iPhone 4 owners so that we can make the best, informed decisions for ourselves and our businesses. Not everyone may have the proximity sensor issue, but many of us do. We need to know this. Most of us will just become more vocal if Apple is silent on it today. They should do themselves a favor and get this thing out there today!

I just don't want to come out of this press conference today being even more confused than I was before about whether or not to return the phone. Some of us don;t have 3GSs or any other phones to revert to!

Message was edited by: LorangeJuice

Message was edited by: LorangeJuice

I doubt it will get a mention. The mainstream press hasn't really caught on to the proximity sensor issues. They're (relatively) hard to reproduce, and not as fun to report on (as in, the irony behind how pleased Jobs was when he announced the antenna, or how this flaw got missed because of apple's secrecy forcing them to use cases and hence avoid touching the phone...)

The conference will be at most to try and put out the fire a little bit. Mentioning the proximity sensor on it will just cause the mainstream media to then go out and report on it the next day, which so far Apple has avoided...

I do not feel that the update fixes the proximity problem based upon my findings (for what that is worth) and what others are reporting. Apple should acknowledge this issue and advise us of what they are going to do to resolve it and when.

Apple has created a standard for creating incredible products, outstanding quality and superior customer support. Now is the time for Apple to show that they still believe in those standards. People develop relationships with others (married couples, parents and children, friends). One of the most important ingredients is trust any relationship. Companies and consumers develop relation ships as well. I believe that this is based upon trust as well. Apple now has a defining moment to keep that trust or break it. Once the trust in a relationship is gone, then it is over. Consumers will develop trust in another company and purchase their gadgets from them. This is how smaller companies (like Apple was at one point) gain market share on their competitors. They gain the trust of their customers.

It has been asked why the Iphone 4s have a single proximity sensor and not two proximity sensors. The common answer being thrown around (it seems plausible) is that Apple had to remove some component to make internal space. One of the two sensors lost. I guess it does not matter, because regardless of the reason the phone now only has a single proximity sensor.

So if the previous Iphone’s needed two sensors to correctly detect a face, then it would make sense that the single sensor in the Iphone 4 has to work twice as good to make up the difference. So an argument could be made that Apple may have actually included a better quality sensor in the Iphone 4 to make up for the sensor that was removed.

I would fully agree that sensor placement has a lot to do with the quality of face detection. Place it in the correct position and the circuit has a chance of doing its job. Place it in the wrong position and it can’t work or the performance is diminished. I think that Apple could have placed the sensor in a slightly better place. Why not switch the position of the proximity sensor with the new camera. I think that could have helped, but who knows.

Let us consider the type of measurement the proximity sensor needs to make. It has to detect distance of the face from the phone surface with a certain amount of accuracy. How accurately does the proximity sensor have to detect the distance of the face or object from the surface of the phone? I would say that it does not have to be very accurate in reality. The design criterion does not need ruler accuracy. The phone does not need to know if the face is .25 inches away from the phone or 1 inch or etc. Actually, I do not think that it has to be very accurate. The sensor circuit only needs to be accurate enough to detect the face or object some distance from the phone surface (say 1.5” or 2”). It has to do this consistently. This would create a pass or fail test and that is all that is really needed. Is a face or object is within some reasonable distance from the phone or not? If the answer is yes, then turn off the display. If the answer is no, then activate the display. Once an object gets within a certain distance of the phone surface, then the actual distance no longer matters. The proximity simply indicates that an object is within the target range. So it is a pass or fail measurement.

Does the left to right or up to down position of the face or object over the proximity sensor make a difference. It could make a difference at some point. As a signal (IR in this case) moves a way for the source, then the signal will start to scatter (widen). So it could actually have a greater target area for objects left and right or up and down position over the sensor. This could actually help for a simple pass or fail test (see above). As long as the signal strength is strong enough to return enough of the scattered signal back to the detector it would still work. The question is at what distance away from the phone does the signal scatter (widen) excessively, degrades and no longer returns enough signal to be detected or hit some predetermined threshold? I did a quick test with a small object. I slowly moved the object from left to right and right to left along the surface of the phone. I had place the very small object almost directly over the sensor before the screen deactivated. This was true in both directions (left to right and right to left). I then moved the objet about 1” away from the surface of the phone and repeated the test. I had to place the object in almost the same position as I did for the surface test. It did seem to detect at a little wider area at one inch away. I repeated the test moving up and down and received the same basic results. So it appears that the IR signal did not scatter enough to have an affect. Based upon all of this I am not sure that the proximity sensor issue is due to the position (up/down, left/right) of the face or object.

I think that Apple is trying to detect the actual distance of the face or object away from the surface and make adjustments for some reason. This is why the sensor seems to be over sensitive and the memory effect. I do not understand why they would do this. The proximity only needs to be accurate enough to detect the face at some distance and produce a pass or fail result. Pass means that an object is at or within this distance range of the display (1.5 inches or so) and it turns off the display. The proximity circuit has to be consistent in the way it acts. This is the problem.

If it is a component issue (two sensors vs. one sensor) then it should be an issue that can be replicated as a fault on all handsets (like the antenna issue can be). So why is there no factual evidence of this fault actually existing that can be demonstated as a fault. I can hold a mousemat over my iPhone 4 and 3G and copy the little YouTube video but I cannot replicate the dropped calls, face dialing, muting issue on either of the iPhone 4s I have at my disposal.

This tells me that soem iPhones have a fault and some do not.

If that's the case, why hasn't anyone got together someone who does have the fault with someone who does not have the faulst and demonstrate conclusively that one handset is definately faulty while the other is not?

This is an issue that will be ignored by Apple and the press at large because there is no real world evidence that the fault actually exists that can be replicated or demonstrated on the ground. Yes there are a few people doing the rounds on the forums banging their drums about this, but the proportion of people experiencing this 'fault' is absolutely miniscule in comparison to the number of iPhone 4 owners.

That;s no consolation if you happen to have one of the f'd handsets, but lets not pretend this is a worldwide every single user issue, or a design flaw in the handset. It's a bunch of people who have faulty handsets and who are having a difficult time proving they are faulty and getting working handsets from Apple. 99.9% of the world is not having this issue with their handsets.

For those who don't seem to have the proximity sensor problem, here is something you can do to test it: Call some random phone number that has constant hold music or something similar, and hold the phone with your left shoulder (as you would if you were driving or typing) and stand in front of a mirror. Wiggle around a little bit and readjust the phone with your shoulder. You will notice a very brief illumination of the phone, just enough to hit a button on accident. I know this all sounds very dramatic and your first response might be, "well don't do that" however I can confirm that much smaller measures will cause this to happen over the course of a 5-6 minute call, this is simply the full-proof way to get it to occur.

The worst thing about this is I would be PERFECTLY happy with a software update that included a lock button I could hit after making a call to avoid any unintended button mashing.

If this is not fixed soon I intend to return the phone in the next week and go back to my old blackberry despite how much I love this phones other features. I simply cannot continue to hang up on clients while typing or in the car, and buying a blue tooth should not be necessary for a phone to function.

Dear mbassoc2003
,

What you are saying with all the respect is completely faulse. ALL 100 % of the iphones 4 have the issue with the sensor. Not a single iphone is working the way we used to have in 3g or 3gS. The reason why only few people complaining is because obviosely not everybody paticipate at forums and because some people hold the phone far from the face and they do not know about the problem .I personally tested phones from USA , UK , France . I tested almost 100 phones and ALL OF THEM have Proximity sensor problem !!!
This is a new design problem and not " Some " faulty units !!!

I too have proximity issues on the iPhone4. It's an awful problem and I'm frustrated that Apple seems to be blowing it off. I'm sure it's not going to be addressed in the press conference today. I already have had big problems with their iOS4 zilching purchases from iTunes. It took a lot of arm-twisting to get Apple to step up and replace the songs, though they still refused to admit any wrongdoing or any 'problem' with their magical software.

I had always thought Apple was better at customer Service, but now I'm finding them just as sneaky and just as low-life as Dell and others. They refuse to admit responsibility for their actions. What a RESPONSIBLE and ADULT group does is admit their mistakes and fix them. Looks like Mr. Jobs isn't about to do that. That kind of behavior leads to illness and he's walking proof of it.

Well, I am disappointed this issue was not addressed in conference today.

I guess they think that by announcing a bunch of good stuff, the bad stuff will fall off the radar. The sad reality is that I am sure they are right - these guys are masters of public relations.

It looks like my phone is going back to Best Buy - what a disappointment.

@RRnTexas: ???

The conference is in an hour. Got a crystal ball app there have ya? 😉

Just got off the "phone" with iPhone support guy "Jeff". Nice guy, no BS. He has indeed gotten the issue before and he said engineers have "captured" enough iP4s to investigate the problem so, they're not "capturing" any more. I have an appointment later today to swap-out for #3. We shall see. I'll report back later.
*Doubting this will even be mentioned today @ the press conference. I got the impression iPhone support guys are weary of taking our calls with no clear guidelines from above on how to advise us Prox problem folk.

Oops, I guess I read the wrong press conference. Must be the drugs...

Just because the iPhone 4 does not work the same way the iPhone 3G worked does not make it faulty. ****, my iPhone 4 is faulty because it doesn't fit in my 3G case.

If 99.9% of the 17million handsets sold in the first three days have never received a reported faulty sensor issue, then there is no issue with the design of the unit. It's something a miniscule minority of people who really really liked the 3G don't like about their new gizmo.

Now, if 40% of placed calls, or even 10% of placed calls right across the world exhibited problems with unexpected muting or termination of call, then you could cobfirm that none of those were due to network coverage or the 'antenna issue' then I could see an isse that could be described as a design fault.

But when 99.9% of all the world is not having a sensor problem, it's not a design flaw. If as a poster you thing it is not a handful of faulty sensors, then it can only be user error. Unless what you're saying is that everyone else has this problem and they're keeping it secret, ormaybe everyone else isn't having this problem because they're using their handsets wrong?

I don't give a **** if my phone blinks on and off lighting up my ear. I've been placing 20 minute calls to my home phone trying to replicate this problem; trying to dial with my cheak, hang up with my ear or mute with my nose. I cannot for the life of me find this sensor issue.

When I take the phone a little away from my ear, the screen activates. when i shove it back to the side of my head it switched off again, rub it around, make it blink, sure. But it still doesn't dial, mute or hand up calls.

I've been trying for days now, but I'm beginning the think I'm lucky not to be the one in a thousand who have discovered this trick of cheek dialing.

When I visited the Apple Genius Bar, the two guys sitting to my right at the bar were both there for the same reason as me. Proximity issues.

My "genius" told me the new phone "might very well" have the same issue, and that Apple is aware it is a widespread problem. He felt they would probably address the issue with a software "fix" but in the meantime, I should expect to "relearn how to talk on the phone." That is how the Apple folks in his store were having to deal with it.

So it's an issue and it's widespread. I'm not sure why it's not happening on your two phones, it appears you're extra lucky. Good luck with your continued success.

I too am experiencing Proximity Sensor issues...almost every phone call I have my face will either mute, initiate a Face Time request or dial someone in my contacts.

This never happened with my 3G...I certainly hope this is an easy software fix.