Will the new Apple TV 4K 3rd generation support hi-res lossless audio?
Apple TV 4K, tvOS 16
Interesting discussion - because I have the same question.
Lots of confusion in the discussion as well.
First, ALAC vs. FLAC:
Both are mathematical compressions, which means: They are reversible. When you decode the compressed file, you get the exact same bit sequence you had before. This means: Neither one is better than the other - because you’ll get the exact same file back from both, you won’t lose anything.
This is why both are called “lossless compression”.
MP3 or AAC are different: They remove ‘inaudible’ components of the music (e.g. a triangle being played while the guy next to the percussionist blasts his trumpet). Therefore, MP3 or AAC compression (and all the TV formats like Dolby Digital, Atmos etc.) are considered “lossy”.
The format of the music inside the ALAC or FLAC file
The “payload” of an ALAC or FLAC file does not matter - the compression algorithm of both does not even look at it. So, it will never change the bit rate or the sampling rate when you compress a file with FLAC or ALAC.
In theory, you could be compressing a picture or a Word document with FLAC: it’s purely mathematics.
What makes an ALAC or FLAC file a music file is the fact that all meta data (tags like title, artist, album, or cover art etc.) are kept outside of the music payload - which means that you can see these things, e.g. in Apple Music without decompressing the file.
And when you start decompressing, you will get your bit-perfect music payload back.
(One of the key differences between ALAC and FLAC is the storage of metadata: ALAC uses the same format as the lossy AAC/M4A files. FLAC has a different metadata format which Apple does not support, it does not mandatorily follow any standards.)
High-Resolution Music:
The generally accepted definition is: Everything better than a CD is considered Hi-Res. A bit rate higher than 16 bit, and/or a sampling rate greater than 44 KHz makes the file Hi-Res. 24-bit/44 KHz can be considered Hi-Res, and 16-bit/96 KHz is also considered Hi-Res. So technically, Apple's "24 bit, 48 KHz" limits can be considered Hi-Res.
Common Hi-Res files (like Apple’s) typically have both high bit rates and high sampling rates (e.g. 24bit/96 Khz or 24 bit/192 KHz).
That said…:
A FLAC or ALAC file is always lossless - but only as lossless as your original file.
If you re-encode an MP3 file to FLAC, you won’t get the information back that the MP3 encoder removed. You only will get the original music information from the MP3 file back.
If you encode a CD (which technically is a 16 bit/44 KHz WAV file), your FLAC or ALAC will get the exact original CD quality.
Apple:
Apple is offering “Hi-Res” lossless music in their store: It’s encoded in 24 bit/192 KHz. For delivery, it is losslessly compressed using the ALAC algorithm.
Apple apparently does not offer any device that makes use of these Hi-Res files: AirPlay2 maxes out at 24 bit/48 KHz. So does the DAC in the lightning-to-3.5mm cable. Not even the expensive Apple AirPod Max headphones can go beyond 24 bit/48 KHz. The AppleTV would have been the perfect device to allow passing on high-resolution music: In many cases, it is connected to an AV receiver over an HDMI cable. HDMI can handle the high bitrates and frequencies - and pretty much any AV receiver has a potent Digital-to-Analog converter inside. You could keep everything Hi-Res until you are converting back to analog.
Opportunity missed:
From what I read here, Apple latest ATV 4k still does not allow the output of Hi-Res files in Hi-Res over the HDMI output.
The passage about ATV digital audio maxing out at 24 bit/48 KHz was in Apple's documentation for the previous generation of ATV 4k - that’s why many were hoping that Apple would improve on this with the new device and its higher processing power.
The bottom line, I guess: We have to keep waiting. And I will not subscribe to Apple Music - because the biggest advantage it has - the Hi-Res files - evaporates the moment it reaches an Apple device.
Exactly what I posted. ALAC is compressed audio which Apple uses for its lossless service. True uncompressed is not available on ALAC. Use AIFF (or Wav) for that. If you’re confused, that’s alright. It takes repeat reads to sort out.
Looks like you didn’t quite comprehend my posts😁. If you’re confused, that’s alright, takes repeat reads to sort out. Anyways, I stand by every one of them. As for your “information points”, hopefully you’re done with it! It’s getting tiring…
Yes "compressed" because ALAC and FLAC both use less data but not lossy was my point. Apple should clarify the specs are:
HE-AAC (V1), AAC (up to 320 Kbps), protected AAC (from iTunes Store), MP3 (up to 320 Kbps), MP3 VBR, Apple Lossless, FLAC, AIFF, and WAV; AC-3 (Dolby Digital 5.1), E-AC-3 (Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 surround sound), and Dolby Atmos
Unless this version just came out I have what I thought was the latest ATV and I don't see how you would play FLAC or WAV? I'm just ****** I can't play hi-res through Apple Music.. luckily I have a jRiver Media server and I can play through DLNA to my OPPO 205.. I'll probalby dump Apple Music.
From what I understand Apple Music’s High-Resolution Lossless format goes up to 24-bit/192kHz
The Apple Lossless Encoder (and decoder) were released as open source software under the Apache License version 2.0 on October 27, 2011.
ATV cannot play anything higher than 24-bit 48kHz lossless through HDMI. Mine can't though some Dolby Atmos tracks sound pretty good, but they are not hi-res just "spacial".
I can play hi-res Apple music from iPad or iPhone using lightning / USB to a DAC or my receiver.
I can't waste any more time trying to figure out what contradictions hcsitas is saying now. If you want to play hi-res (above 24/48) from any source it can't be through ATV at present anyway, but it can be through iPad or iPhone through a DAC or Receiver. You can even load or play from the network DSF or very hi-res PCM on those devices if you have an app capable. Don't confuse "compressed" with "lossy". ALAC and FLAC or ANY LOSSLESS format end up with the exact same bits after decoded... the files are just smaller. Neither has been proven "superior".
I’m done buddy! This discussion has already strayed way off-topic. To extend it further by responding to your questions would be violating forum rules. But they’re good questions, don’t get me wrong! Good luck in your research and finding what works for you😉👋
@hcsitas No, it will definitely NOT. I have a 9.000€ AV-Receiver that is capable of 21.1 Ch. Dolby Atmos at 32 Bit/320 kHz and the ATV 4K 2nd Gen. The ATV only gets up to 24 Bit/48 kHz. And yes, I have the Apple TV directly hooked up to my receiver and it still only gets up to 24/48 when on the same HDMI input my PC can easily output 32/320 to the AVR. Please stop telling things that simply just are not true.
"hcsitas"... I don't understand why you downgrade other people's wishes to use AppleTV 4K 3gen (2022) for the utilization of Hi-Res Lossless audio files that Apple Music offers? Of course, this is a big problem that Apple does not prioritize this for its HiFi users... how difficult can it be??
I also do not understand why Apple is offering real high res files, but there is no other solution then to use a Mac to play it comfortable. For my sake they can create a remote controllable iPod Pro with 24/192 via USB port, a big storage and a good headphone amplifier for music enthusiast. But it's miserable the way it is today.
Thanks a lot for your very informative input. But your statement that there is no device, that can play hi-res up to 24/192 is not full true. You can play this with Apple Music on a Mac via USB or HDMI out to a DAC. I do this with a Mac Mini and the 24bit/192kHz is verified.
Thank you, I then stand corrected there. I just did not have another Mac laying around to try it. I only have one (a laptop), and it’s not connected to my stereo using cables.
What do you use to control Apple Music on the Mac Mini, e.g. to select music, start/stop playing etc. from your phone (or iPad)?
The same is true of iPod Touch (7th gen) and iPhones plugged into an AV receiver or DAC. I have used an iPod and iPhone 14 Pro connected with a Lightening to USB cable directly into a McIntosh MX180 processor. I’ve confirmed both at 24/192. I can use the processor’s remote control to access playlists and such, but it’s kinda clunky. With an iPhone I can use my Apple Watch as a MUCH better remote, but then I lose use of the iPhone, obviously.
The best possible solution would have been the AppleTV. Oh well. Maybe it will be a future product or even a software update.
I have a spare Mac Mini. Question: can I just replace my AppleTV entirely with the Mac Mini? Will it do all the things? Obviously I can hook it up and see, but if someone knows that would be awesome - especially if I can use the ATV remote.
For Apple Music, yes. But I would not recommend it for TV+ etc. For Apple Music the remote control via screensharing/VNC is OK, but if you want to see stuff on a TV you have to use the TV as the Mac screen. I have an old Mac mini (Mid 2011) and it's slow with Monterey and I didn't try TV+ and use it only for Music, but also if you have a newer mini, I think it's not what you want. The operation is not so comfortable as with Apple TV and it's remote control. Because of this I have both, a mini for music, and TV for video.
Apple should bring hi-res to TV or create something like a iPod Plus. But it is as it is today.
Well, I spent an hour trying to find out calling Apple about purchasing the new Apple TV. One person told me it does support Hi-Rez audio and basically sent me the specs in an email, which do not say that. Called back again and got to someone higher up in tech I guess who at least understood my question about the new Apple TV and basically all they did was read the specs and then say that it will not play 24-bit 192kHz high resolution audio.
New Apple TV 4K and hi-res lossless
