New Apple TV 4K and hi-res lossless

Now we are getting somewhere! So:

1. Why would you convert to ALAC and then back to AIFF or WAV? ALAC is decoded into PCM when played, and will be bit-perfect to the original file, up to 24/192. If you have some credible information that shows otherwise, I'd like to educate myself more.
2. After exhaustive research on xiph.org (who created and maintains the FLAC codec) and other sites, I am not able to find any information on FLAC files living in an uncompressed format anywhere, for any reason. I can see how the compression numeration they use would be confusing (9 levels from 0-8), but even at 0 it is still 40% compression from a WAV file. If you have a credible source, I would most certainly like to learn.
3. This one confuses me the most. I think we have nailed the ALAC and Apple Music app max resolution on Apple TV is 24/48. It seemed you were referencing other audio apps on the AppleTV like Tidal, Amazon Music, or music files in File Explorer. Obviously a 16/44 file wouldn't output Hi-Res without an Upscaler like Chord. However, many hifi receivers or processors will display the originating file type and resolution. In fact, I held off on responding till my new integrated amp that has the new Sabre ES9068 DACs had arrived. It ensures that every digital input is able to decode in every supported format, including the HDMI input. Among others, it supports MQA. I had wrongly guessed that a 24/192 MQA file through the Tidal app on AppleTV would be delivered as a 24/192. It was not. I have not found any way to play a HiRes file from AppleTV. You had mentioned that AppleTV would play HiRes files from apps outside of Apple Music, and I respect that you stand by all your posts. Integrity is hard to come by. Can you give any guidance on what hardware or settings I would need to play HiRes audio files from AppleTV in any way? I have a fairly unlimited budget, so point me towards the solution and I'll put it to the test!

Thanks in advance for your partnership in getting to the truth of this deeply technical matter, and providing the community with the ability to get the most of their investments!

@nitinti - I think if you want to play your own music, you don’t need any Apple software (or hardware). All you need is:

• Your AV receiver, connected to the network
• Some (any) computer on which you have a folder with your music (that can be the Apple Music folder or some other folder), connected to the same network
• Free software: MinimServer, running on the computer that has the file folder
• Free controller software on your iPad or iPhone. This can be Yamaha MusiCast or Denon/Marantz Heos, or mConnect, but there are nicer ones like Linn or Lumin, but for the latter ones, you also need BubbleUPnPServer running next to MinimServer.

All these are free and have a user experience that blows Apple out of the water (unless you are operating your music from the same Apple device where it’s actually stored).

What I am looking for is something like Apple Music on iPhone or iPad, which would play back the songs that I don’t have on my drives, the stuff that’s streaming from outside of the house, directly on the Apple TV. Not the music I already own.

Hi all, this has been a good discussion and I thought I would share my experience. Like the OP, I too wondered if ATV 4k would play Hi-res lossless audio since the ATV4k came out years ago and much like everyone else on this thread I learned it cannot which is indeed disappointing. This fact is one reason I have not cancelled my subscription to Amazon Music HD. Amazon music service can stream up to 24bit/192kHz via HDMI (iPhone is limited to 24bit/48kHz with its internal DAC) and using an Amazon Fire Stick I can listen to music at max resolution quite easily on my sound system.

I also subscribe to Apply Music with an ATV4K connected to the same sound system as the fire stick which gives me an opportunity to compare subjective sound quality between Amazon and Apple with the same hardware and settings.

I listen to music through a Denon x6500H AVR with EQ calibration using Denon's built in audyssey calibration feature with all dynamic compression turned off listening at reference level. The speakers are Polk monitor 60 series II - not especially high end but sound very good to me with a bright sound profile which is what I prefer.

Here is what I have concluded after many hours of comparing the sound quality between both services - song for song. This is just my subjective opinion of course:

• Amazon Ultra HD at 24bit/192kHz sounds noticeably better than Apple Lossless at 24bit/48kHz. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone I suppose but I will say both sound great but there are indeed differences in sound when comparing side x side.

• To my surprise Amazon HD at 24bit/48kHz also sounds better than Apple Lossless at 24bit/48kHz. I especially hear the difference at the higher frequencies. I don't know if this is simply an artifact of the difference in ALAC vs FLAC encoding but the higher frequency sounds - such as the crash or tapping of cymbals or the higher pitch sounds from a violin to sound more accurate and distinct from the other instruments in the background.

I enjoy listening to Amazon more than apple because of this but I will be honest and say under 95% of casual listening, I can't complain about Apple music sound quality because Apple lossless still sounds very good.

@gmeardi - I know this moves away from the “AppleTV does not do Hi-Res” discussion…

First of all, sounds like a great setup you have there. Definitely dwarfs mine (Marantz AVR with a set of Martin Logan speakers).

DSD is an issue (many can’t do it), and multichannel DSD is another level on top of that. I was going down many different routes, and none of them works, e.g.:

• Digital inputs like coax or optical (TOSlink) don’t have the bandwidth for multichannel (multichannel in Atmos or dts or Dolby Digital is highly compressed).
• A Blu-Ray player like your Oppo: You can use it as a DLNA renderer, it can output DSD over HDMI, in multichannel - but it won’t be gapless.
• DLNA streaming over the network to a DLNA-capable receiver (like mine) It works, it’s gapless, but there is no receiver that does multichannel over DLNA.
• There is not really any device (other than the Blu-Ray players) that I could find that would output multichannel DSD over HDMI.

The reason for the DSD-over-HDMI problem is that the audio signals coming over HDMI must apparently be added into a video signal on the same data feed (which the Blu-Ray players can do, they are e.g. sending the cover art and the track name, and accompany the still image with some music). For a computer solution, this means: You would need something that is capable of adding a DSD signal into the video feed - and that now makes it a graphics card problem, not a software problem. A Mac Mini won’t be able to do that.

I spent many (too many) hours on this and ended up with the following setup, which works perfectly, and even more important: Reliably.

• On my NAS (which holds the DSD files), I am running MinimServer - which is probably the best and most rock-solid server you can get, and it’s free. It can stream multichannel DSD without problems, over DLNA and allows gapless playback.
• I bought a mini PC (yes, gasp, blasphemy…) for about $200 (“Mele Quieter 3Q”) on Amazon. This is a fanless device with relatively low power consumption (~4 Watt idle) which I have running all the time. It’s like an appliance…
• On the PC, I installed JRiver MediaCenter ($60 for a perpetual license) - and I only use the renderer (“Player”) part of it. JRiver is configured to convert the multichannel DSD files into 24-bit PCM with 176 KHz sampling rate and 5.1 channels - and sends that over HDMI to my receiver.

Losing the DSD quality before hitting the receiver was not an issue for me - since any digital processing (e.g. room correction) would convert to PCM anyway before sending the signal to the built-in DAC of the receiver.

Finally I have a solution that plays multichannel music over the network, at high quality, and including perfectly gapless playback.

With your setup, @gmeardi, the solution mighty be slightly different, and depends on the capabilities of the AVM 70.

I am not sure if you can stream “raw” multichannel DSD or PCM files easily over the network port into the device, or if HDMI is your only way to get these files playing. If it’s HMDI:

• If the AVM 70 is capable of “DoP” the solution I am using could bring the DSD signal directly into the AVM 70. JRiver Media Center can output DoP and the mini-PC can add that to the video signal.

DoP: “DSD over PCM”. A DSD stream is packaged into a PCM stream (without changing any of the DSD properties). Think of it as transport packaging. The PCM stream then can be added (by the graphics card of the computer) to the HDMI stream that you are sending to your AV processor. The processor unpacks the PCM (DoP) signal and gets the DSD signal back, for further processing or sending to a DSD-capable DAC. No quality loss involved.

• If the AVM 70 cannot do DoP: Since you can’t do DSD over HDMI from a computer, the conversion to PCM (for DSD files, use 176 KHz) is probably the only way.

In my setup, I am using a mini-PC - I’m just cheap like that. Of course, you also could use a Mac Mini if you want to employ it for other purposes, like streaming Apple Music Hi-Res audio. You’d still send a PCM signal to your DAC though.

P.S: I started out using freeware Foobar2000, which exists only for Windows, as my renderer/player on the PC, but it did not do gapless with DSD files. It had an audible ‘plop’ between tracks - and that’s why I moved to Jriver MediaCenter instead.

1. Wrong. They have a streamer: https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/port
2. I'm aware of what Hifi Rose offers - I'm listening to one right now. You said "finally license Apple Music to other manufacturers, like Apple TV", to which I responded with 2 manufacturers that they have licensed it to. I didn't say it played Hi-Res. Apple Music works fine, all the time on my Hifi Rose. All issues in your link were resolved.

Doesn’t matter what you call the file for his question. Apple may well be inappropriately calling ALAC high res lossless but they are. For that, he is correct. The question is will the new apple tv 4K support sending their “hi-res” audio format that is up to 24- bit/192kHz.

see screen shot from iphone:

Will the new 4k TV do the same?

[Edited by Moderator]

A Mac Mini is IMHO the only remote controllable suitable solution for living rooms so far. I use it to play high res up to 24k/192kHz via USB into a Cambridge Audio DAC (but HDMI will also be possible). Using the tool "Lossless Switcher" Music is played with original sample rate of the file regardless the settings in "Audio Midi Setup".

https://github.com/vincentneo/LosslessSwitcher

It's also better to disable loading "Dolby Atmos" in Music preferences. A high res file is not loading if it's enabled and the music has Dolby Atmos concurrently, then the DA file would be saved.

My remote control is another Mac, a Macbook with screen sharing to the mini. But you can use every device with VNC. You can also use the Apple Remote control for Apple TV. Or a Bluetooth keyboard. But then you have to connect the Mac to a TV or screen to see what happens.

Technical it is also possible to use an iPad with USB C for hi-res. But I find no comfortable solution for remote control. So I use an old Mac Mini with Monterey

I've ordered a WiiM Mini Streamer for about 90€ Black Friday price. It has Amazon Music build in (and much more) and hi-res out up to 24/192 - I will test it. ... :-)

ALAC isn’t High Res, what’s so hard to understand about that? You think Sparks is ALAC, but it doesn’t say so does it? You could get both your iPad and your ATV to play Sparks high res provided they’re hooked up to external equipment that supports it. Otherwise they’ll play it vanilla-lossless. This isn’t an Apple issue, it’s dependent on external equipment that’s receiving the bit stream.

flac aiff and wav does not equal anything. Supporting these formats doesn’t confirm if the music app in the tv or airplay to tv supports Apple Lossless 24 bit 192khz.

like many apple rollouts of new tech this is another mess hiding failure to deliver in complete lack of detail.

Great, happy to hear! Apple High Resolution as defined by Apple for its Music App is another animal entirely, however. It won’t play on your TVs (as you’ve already pointed out). What will play is high resolution music as the rest of the world knows it - uncompressed FLAC or WAV or AIFF files, accessed and played outside of the Music App (using a third party player App).

I have bought a 2022 Apple TV and have the following results:

TV will indeed only play lossless via Airplay / control from iPhone. However! I did note that if you play a 24 bit 96khz track it will still play it at 24bit but down-sample to 44khz and call is lossless as apposed to Hi-Res Lossless.

Can only hope apple update the software, but for now it sounds pretty sweet.