New Apple TV 4K and hi-res lossless

@gmeardi, @BitzgiSF

The "Dune HD Max Vision 4K" mediaplayer can play multichannel DSD files from an attached storage or from streaming servers over HDMI to your receiver. Even the cheaper "Dune HD Pro 4K II" can do it, if you find one on Ebay. Maybe there are also other hardware manufactures.

Sonos are only speakers like HomePods - not a streaming device. And Rose can not support hi-res because the Apple SDK does not support hi-res.

"The reason we decided to support Apple Music in the first place was to make it possible to listen to the high-resolution lossless sound sources of Apple Music from Hi-Fi Rose device.

However, the currently released SDK does not support lossless sound sources."

And there are much more problems for Rose to implement it:

https://community.roseaudio.kr/t/information-about-apple-music-service/2892

As I said. A Mac mini (or other Mac) is the only practical solution today to stream Apple Music hi-res to a good DAC.

This is a genuine question and is not meant to be antagonistic...because discussion is easy to misunderstand in text vs voice:

I just want to make sure I understand your current setup. You state that you don't subscribe to Apple Music. I assume that you subscribe to another music service that provides hi-res lossless streaming. If so, what device are you playing it on so has to avoid losing the benefit? I'm absolutely in agreement with you that I want an AppleTV that supports hi-res lossless...as well as a rewrite of Apple Music on the Mac that supports it natively as well.

This is a long and complex issue that Apple could fix if it was a high enough priority.

Perhaps you're using another streaming service that provides hi-res lossless and you're feeding that into a DAC that then feeds your amp or pre-amp? Some DACs may provide the music service built in. I have a Linn DAC that has Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify, etc built in. Although I'd love for Linn to also include Apple Music in that list, I feed the hi-res lossless stream from Apple Music into my Linn DAC, connected to McIntosh MC1.25k's. Using a cabled iOS device works perfectly for this solution. However, I use a Mac to do that only because I can do remote control of the Mac in order to control the music. The problem on a Mac is that you set the output to 24/192 and it will play that stream. For streams that aren't, but are still hi-res lossless, such as 24/48 or 24/96, Apple Music doesn't automatically reset to that rate as iOS does. I assume it's upsampling.

Apple needs to fix this. But I don't want to keep separate setups (playlists, profiles, etc) for different music apps. Apple Music is on my phone which means it's in my car and everywhere else.

But the bottom line, as far as I know, is that EVERY streaming service has this issue, right? At some point, there's a piece of hardware that has the appropriate DAC. What hardware are you using for the alternative service? Can't it also be used by Apple Music?

Looks like you didn’t read my posts very carefully…check the Apple links, sufficient, and contact Support if it’s not performing as spec’ed👋

ALAC isn’t High Res, what’s so hard to understand about that? You think Sparks is ALAC, but it doesn’t say so does it? You could get both your iPad and your ATV to play Sparks high res provided they’re hooked up to external equipment that supports it. Otherwise they’ll play it vanilla-lossless. This isn’t an Apple issue, it’s dependent on external equipment that’s receiving the bit stream.

I agree with RufusJazz, apple is not being clear if the new 4k tv 2022 will support 24 bit 96khz high res lossless audio or 24 bit 192khz.

Apple Music is a game changing product, but using it with convenience of an apple iPhone or iPad is correctly non existent.

you can either plug your device in via a DAC or use a mac via hdmi. No one really wants to do that in their lounge rooms. The Apple TV is the perfect solution. Just needs to support 24 bit and up to at least 96khz

flac aiff and wav does not equal anything. Supporting these formats doesn’t confirm if the music app in the tv or airplay to tv supports Apple Lossless 24 bit 192khz.

like many apple rollouts of new tech this is another mess hiding failure to deliver in complete lack of detail.

As already mentioned, Apple TV is primarily for TV content, not Music. It also doesn’t work without a TV which is ridiculous in itself if you’re wanting it primarily for Music, that too in every room. Irrespective, use Feedback if Music on ATV falls short of your needs (or stick with Qobuz, whatever that is). Good luck!

ATV is primarily an entertainment hub, and part of the Apple total solution which is the only way it will stay relevant in light of there being a plethora of other options, many built into TVs. Typically, the best audio components are also part of a home’s entertainment center. Apple has offered Hi-Res audio to stave off subscriber attrition to other services that offer it, but don’t offer a way to actually get what you are paying for. I get why you’d need a DAC to access it from a phone, but considering the ATV is plugged into a DAC, it would make sense to transmit Hi-Res through the HDMI line. It’s hard to understand this omission. Especially when you can connect the iPhone to a DAC and get Hi-Res.

Further, you are incorrect. You do not need a TV to use the AppleTV. Connecting it to Ethernet and an AV Processor works just fine for streaming music from Apple Music.

You are the one getting it wrong ALAC and FLAC are the same thing, ALAC is simply apple’s version of lossless and yes it can be higher res than CD. Please don’t confuse people more than they already are.

Sorry, but that is simply not true. I can stream music to an Apple TV from an iPhone or iPad without ever using the remote or TV. My phone turns on the receiver and controls tracks and volume via Airplay 2.

As for your last question, yes ALAC and FLAC are the same quality. Apple uses proprietary technology to produce the same quality audio as FLAC. They simply give it a different name: ALAC.

For those seeking a workaround to Apple TV’s lack of support for hi-res audio files, here is what I found. I streamed Apple Music Lossless audio from an iPad to a top end Denon AVR-A110 receiver with an internal digital-to-analog (DAC) converter. The speakers are Class A audiophile quality. I compared the same Lossless audio file on both the Apple TV and the iPad using a headphone cable from the iPad to RCA jacks on the receiver. The iPad stream was poor by comparison. Yes, you can stream hi-res files from the iPad, but the added distortion and meager bass will leave you disappointed. If you are willing to spend a few hundred $$ on a lightning/headphone/RCA cable, perhaps you may get better results.

Dude... it seems you just keep going in circles. This is what you said previously below, BOLD is my reply to you:

"You’re wrong, ALAC is compressed audio, AIFF is uncompressed. Look it up. Both are supported; Apple Lossless = ALAC. 

YOU are contradicting yourself in the same post! First, you say ALAC is compressed audio then you say Apple Lossless = ALAC! Which is it? Is ALAC Compressed or lossless!! Make up your mind!

ALAC is not high resolution lossless but supported on ATV. High resolution lossless is FLAC, AIFF, Wav etc., all also ATV-supported."

ALAC is lossless and it can be high resolution! ALAC is NOT Compressed it is lossless!!! Jesus!

Your original question confused the two (and everyone here) - that’s ok, no problem 😁. Anyway, I believe there’s enough in this thread for you to sort it out; for the rest you can use feedback Feedback - Apple TV - Apple. Good luck!

You are the one confusing everyone! If you can't get something that simple right then just don't post please. Don't bother replying.

Yes "compressed" because ALAC and FLAC both use less data but not lossy was my point. Apple should clarify the specs are:

HE-AAC (V1), AAC (up to 320 Kbps), protected AAC (from iTunes Store), MP3 (up to 320 Kbps), MP3 VBR, Apple Lossless, FLAC, AIFF, and WAV; AC-3 (Dolby Digital 5.1), E-AC-3 (Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 surround sound), and Dolby Atmos

Unless this version just came out I have what I thought was the latest ATV and I don't see how you would play FLAC or WAV? I'm just ****** I can't play hi-res through Apple Music.. luckily I have a jRiver Media server and I can play through DLNA to my OPPO 205.. I'll probalby dump Apple Music.

Now we are getting somewhere! So:

1. Why would you convert to ALAC and then back to AIFF or WAV? ALAC is decoded into PCM when played, and will be bit-perfect to the original file, up to 24/192. If you have some credible information that shows otherwise, I'd like to educate myself more.
2. After exhaustive research on xiph.org (who created and maintains the FLAC codec) and other sites, I am not able to find any information on FLAC files living in an uncompressed format anywhere, for any reason. I can see how the compression numeration they use would be confusing (9 levels from 0-8), but even at 0 it is still 40% compression from a WAV file. If you have a credible source, I would most certainly like to learn.
3. This one confuses me the most. I think we have nailed the ALAC and Apple Music app max resolution on Apple TV is 24/48. It seemed you were referencing other audio apps on the AppleTV like Tidal, Amazon Music, or music files in File Explorer. Obviously a 16/44 file wouldn't output Hi-Res without an Upscaler like Chord. However, many hifi receivers or processors will display the originating file type and resolution. In fact, I held off on responding till my new integrated amp that has the new Sabre ES9068 DACs had arrived. It ensures that every digital input is able to decode in every supported format, including the HDMI input. Among others, it supports MQA. I had wrongly guessed that a 24/192 MQA file through the Tidal app on AppleTV would be delivered as a 24/192. It was not. I have not found any way to play a HiRes file from AppleTV. You had mentioned that AppleTV would play HiRes files from apps outside of Apple Music, and I respect that you stand by all your posts. Integrity is hard to come by. Can you give any guidance on what hardware or settings I would need to play HiRes audio files from AppleTV in any way? I have a fairly unlimited budget, so point me towards the solution and I'll put it to the test!

Thanks in advance for your partnership in getting to the truth of this deeply technical matter, and providing the community with the ability to get the most of their investments!

@BitzgiSF

Thanks a lot for your very informative input. But your statement that there is no device, that can play hi-res up to 24/192 is not full true. You can play this with Apple Music on a Mac via USB or HDMI out to a DAC. I do this with a Mac Mini and the 24bit/192kHz is verified.