New Apple TV 4K and hi-res lossless

Will the new Apple TV 4K 3rd generation support hi-res lossless audio?

Apple TV 4K, tvOS 16

Posted on Nov 4, 2022 10:38 AM

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Posted on Nov 23, 2022 8:11 PM

Interesting discussion - because I have the same question.

Lots of confusion in the discussion as well.


First, ALAC vs. FLAC:

Both are mathematical compressions, which means: They are reversible. When you decode the compressed file, you get the exact same bit sequence you had before. This means: Neither one is better than the other - because you’ll get the exact same file back from both, you won’t lose anything.

This is why both are called “lossless compression”.

MP3 or AAC are different: They remove ‘inaudible’ components of the music (e.g. a triangle being played while the guy next to the percussionist blasts his trumpet). Therefore, MP3 or AAC compression (and all the TV formats like Dolby Digital, Atmos etc.) are considered “lossy”.


The format of the music inside the ALAC or FLAC file

The “payload” of an ALAC or FLAC file does not matter - the compression algorithm of both does not even look at it. So, it will never change the bit rate or the sampling rate when you compress a file with FLAC or ALAC.

In theory, you could be compressing a picture or a Word document with FLAC: it’s purely mathematics.

What makes an ALAC or FLAC file a music file is the fact that all meta data (tags like title, artist, album, or cover art etc.) are kept outside of the music payload - which means that you can see these things, e.g. in Apple Music without decompressing the file.

And when you start decompressing, you will get your bit-perfect music payload back.

(One of the key differences between ALAC and FLAC is the storage of metadata: ALAC uses the same format as the lossy AAC/M4A files. FLAC has a different metadata format which Apple does not support, it does not mandatorily follow any standards.)


High-Resolution Music:

The generally accepted definition is: Everything better than a CD is considered Hi-Res. A bit rate higher than 16 bit, and/or a sampling rate greater than 44 KHz makes the file Hi-Res. 24-bit/44 KHz can be considered Hi-Res, and 16-bit/96 KHz is also considered Hi-Res. So technically, Apple's "24 bit, 48 KHz" limits can be considered Hi-Res.

Common Hi-Res files (like Apple’s) typically have both high bit rates and high sampling rates (e.g. 24bit/96 Khz or 24 bit/192 KHz).


That said…:

A FLAC or ALAC file is always lossless - but only as lossless as your original file.

If you re-encode an MP3 file to FLAC, you won’t get the information back that the MP3 encoder removed. You only will get the original music information from the MP3 file back.

If you encode a CD (which technically is a 16 bit/44 KHz WAV file), your FLAC or ALAC will get the exact original CD quality.


Apple:

Apple is offering “Hi-Res” lossless music in their store: It’s encoded in 24 bit/192 KHz. For delivery, it is losslessly compressed using the ALAC algorithm.

Apple apparently does not offer any device that makes use of these Hi-Res files: AirPlay2 maxes out at 24 bit/48 KHz. So does the DAC in the lightning-to-3.5mm cable. Not even the expensive Apple AirPod Max headphones can go beyond 24 bit/48 KHz. The AppleTV would have been the perfect device to allow passing on high-resolution music: In many cases, it is connected to an AV receiver over an HDMI cable. HDMI can handle the high bitrates and frequencies - and pretty much any AV receiver has a potent Digital-to-Analog converter inside. You could keep everything Hi-Res until you are converting back to analog.


Opportunity missed:


From what I read here, Apple latest ATV 4k still does not allow the output of Hi-Res files in Hi-Res over the HDMI output.

The passage about ATV digital audio maxing out at 24 bit/48 KHz was in Apple's documentation for the previous generation of ATV 4k - that’s why many were hoping that Apple would improve on this with the new device and its higher processing power.


The bottom line, I guess: We have to keep waiting. And I will not subscribe to Apple Music - because the biggest advantage it has - the Hi-Res files - evaporates the moment it reaches an Apple device.

131 replies

Nov 26, 2022 12:04 PM in response to 1RS

I called apple and after the tiresome task of finding anyone who even understood my question I was told at first the new Apple TV would support hi-res audio, only to be sent the specs which do not say that at all. Called again and after asking to get a representative who undertstood what I was talking about I was told it does not, but he didn't even know there was a third generation just released.

Nov 26, 2022 3:41 PM in response to BitzgiSF

@BitzgiSF

  1. I love my Apple Music subscription.
  2. Unlike Apple TV you need Apple hardware to use the Music subscription! There is no possibility to export music from the subscription. Only if it is bought separately from the subscription
  3. Why should I make such a complicate setup with multicast services over IP if the Apple hardware can be direct connected via USB on my DAC/amplifier?
  4. Believe me. A Mini is the best solution today for hi-res upward of 48kHz. I have spend much time to test iPad, iPhone, Multicast....

Dec 5, 2022 2:43 PM in response to BitzgiSF

I bought a WiiM Mini. It's a funny little sweet thing. Witch much streaming services. Amazon, Tidal, Spotify, Qobuz, Deezer, Napster, SoundCloud, TuneIn, vTuner (without subscription) and a few more. It plays hi-res up to 24/192, but it's not a high-end device. I think I will use it to pimp up an old stereo radio. The WiiM Pro would be the better solution for HiFi.

The App is good. Amazon Music makes more fun with the WiiM App, than with the original.

To compare Amazon Music and Apple Music I installed Amazon on my Mac mini too. Amazon Music is less intuitive and the search is worse. Also, any piece of music that is 24k is classified as "Ultra HD", even if it is 44.1kHz. Amazon Music also seems to me to be less curated. In terms of sound, I couldn't find that the same resolutions sounded worse on Apple. In both cases I saved the music as files on the Mini and then sent it to the DAC via USB.

In the meantime, I think Apple should release not only an ATV with hi-res output, but also an only audio device that provides storage and also SPDIF and USB out. Or they finally license Apple Music to other manufacturers, like Apple TV. On the WiiM website the Apple Music logo was already visible beside Amazon....

Nov 6, 2022 8:58 AM in response to RufusJazzDog

ALAC is not high resolution lossless but supported on ATV. High resolution lossless is FLAC, AIFF, Wav etc., all also ATV-supported.


Your original question confused the two (and everyone here) - that’s ok, no problem 😁. Anyway, I believe there’s enough in this thread for you to sort it out; for the rest you can use feedback Feedback - Apple TV - Apple. Good luck!

Nov 9, 2022 9:07 PM in response to RufusJazzDog

Save your money. The correct answer to this question is NO the new Apple TV 4K, 3rd generation DOES NOT offer “Hi-Res Lossless audio (ALAC up to 24-bit/192 kHz)” as an option. You will find this offered on your iPhone, iPad, and Mac, but not the new Apple TV introduced in November 2022. The best you can do is CD quality (i.e. Lossless) which is not the same as “Apple Digital Master” Hi-Res Audio. I wasted money buying the new Apple TV 4K after being told in the Apple Store that it DID support Apple’s Hi-Res audio. Very dissatisfied with the way Apple has rolled out this Hi-Res feature.

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New Apple TV 4K and hi-res lossless

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