Will the new Apple TV 4K 3rd generation support hi-res lossless audio?
Apple TV 4K, tvOS 16
Interesting discussion - because I have the same question.
Lots of confusion in the discussion as well.
First, ALAC vs. FLAC:
Both are mathematical compressions, which means: They are reversible. When you decode the compressed file, you get the exact same bit sequence you had before. This means: Neither one is better than the other - because you’ll get the exact same file back from both, you won’t lose anything.
This is why both are called “lossless compression”.
MP3 or AAC are different: They remove ‘inaudible’ components of the music (e.g. a triangle being played while the guy next to the percussionist blasts his trumpet). Therefore, MP3 or AAC compression (and all the TV formats like Dolby Digital, Atmos etc.) are considered “lossy”.
The format of the music inside the ALAC or FLAC file
The “payload” of an ALAC or FLAC file does not matter - the compression algorithm of both does not even look at it. So, it will never change the bit rate or the sampling rate when you compress a file with FLAC or ALAC.
In theory, you could be compressing a picture or a Word document with FLAC: it’s purely mathematics.
What makes an ALAC or FLAC file a music file is the fact that all meta data (tags like title, artist, album, or cover art etc.) are kept outside of the music payload - which means that you can see these things, e.g. in Apple Music without decompressing the file.
And when you start decompressing, you will get your bit-perfect music payload back.
(One of the key differences between ALAC and FLAC is the storage of metadata: ALAC uses the same format as the lossy AAC/M4A files. FLAC has a different metadata format which Apple does not support, it does not mandatorily follow any standards.)
High-Resolution Music:
The generally accepted definition is: Everything better than a CD is considered Hi-Res. A bit rate higher than 16 bit, and/or a sampling rate greater than 44 KHz makes the file Hi-Res. 24-bit/44 KHz can be considered Hi-Res, and 16-bit/96 KHz is also considered Hi-Res. So technically, Apple's "24 bit, 48 KHz" limits can be considered Hi-Res.
Common Hi-Res files (like Apple’s) typically have both high bit rates and high sampling rates (e.g. 24bit/96 Khz or 24 bit/192 KHz).
That said…:
A FLAC or ALAC file is always lossless - but only as lossless as your original file.
If you re-encode an MP3 file to FLAC, you won’t get the information back that the MP3 encoder removed. You only will get the original music information from the MP3 file back.
If you encode a CD (which technically is a 16 bit/44 KHz WAV file), your FLAC or ALAC will get the exact original CD quality.
Apple:
Apple is offering “Hi-Res” lossless music in their store: It’s encoded in 24 bit/192 KHz. For delivery, it is losslessly compressed using the ALAC algorithm.
Apple apparently does not offer any device that makes use of these Hi-Res files: AirPlay2 maxes out at 24 bit/48 KHz. So does the DAC in the lightning-to-3.5mm cable. Not even the expensive Apple AirPod Max headphones can go beyond 24 bit/48 KHz. The AppleTV would have been the perfect device to allow passing on high-resolution music: In many cases, it is connected to an AV receiver over an HDMI cable. HDMI can handle the high bitrates and frequencies - and pretty much any AV receiver has a potent Digital-to-Analog converter inside. You could keep everything Hi-Res until you are converting back to analog.
Opportunity missed:
From what I read here, Apple latest ATV 4k still does not allow the output of Hi-Res files in Hi-Res over the HDMI output.
The passage about ATV digital audio maxing out at 24 bit/48 KHz was in Apple's documentation for the previous generation of ATV 4k - that’s why many were hoping that Apple would improve on this with the new device and its higher processing power.
The bottom line, I guess: We have to keep waiting. And I will not subscribe to Apple Music - because the biggest advantage it has - the Hi-Res files - evaporates the moment it reaches an Apple device.
My goal was to stream the Master Quality audio directly from Apple Music. There are other options, but the goal was to maximize the benefit of paying Apple for this service. Apple TV aspires to be an entertainment center. One can only hope Apple issues a firmware update to handle the larger files.
It’s not that big a deal - Apple TV is primarily for playing TV content, which it does with flying colors in all formats. Additionally, the volume of originally-recorded high-resolution music worldwide is minuscule, even more so in Apple’s library. True connoisseurs of high-resolution music won’t flock to Apple Music on Apple TV anyway (or Apple anything), it’s not what it’s for. That said, use Feedback to channel your wishes, can’t hurt. Good luck!
Thanks, everyone. Good discussion. I shall save my money, as the new 3rd gen ATV doesn’t appear to offer anything my 2nd gen one doesn’t that matters to me. CD quality lossless (as Apple Music defines it) sounds pretty darn good on my Anthem receiver and B&W speakers. And Apple Music has a huge jazz library, so I’ll stick with what I’ve got.
Apple got into master quality music because competitors like Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon and others are siphoning off customers. Apple has committed to expanding their hi-res library. To each his own, but once you hear it you can appreciate the difference in sound quality. Not everyone has that need. The point in answering the question above was to save them the expense of being misled.
Not for most users, they’d need the user-interface, not to mention ATV remote to enjoy the full experience. Also, when it comes to high-speed throughput, Ethernet is no comparison to HDMI. At any rate, you’re voicing your criticism/future vision for the device for which Feedback is best. This forum is for technical issues with the box/App as specified and offered. Good luck!
Stating that AppleTV will work without being connected to a TV is part of a technical discussion, which is also correcting the erroneous statement that it won’t work. ATV owners with iPhones have the UI to fully operate it with your said iPhone - which is, again, a technical and factual statement correcting a previous erroneous statement.
I’m going to try playing Hi-Res audio from another music app on the ATV shortly to fully clear up the misinformation being shared. I’ll edit once I’ve determined if it will work or not.
Doesn’t matter what you call the file for his question. Apple may well be inappropriately calling ALAC high res lossless but they are. For that, he is correct. The question is will the new apple tv 4K support sending their “hi-res” audio format that is up to 24- bit/192kHz.
see screen shot from iphone:
Will the new 4k TV do the same?
[Edited by Moderator]
Exactly what I posted. ALAC is compressed audio which Apple uses for its lossless service. True uncompressed is not available on ALAC. Use AIFF (or Wav) for that. If you’re confused, that’s alright. It takes repeat reads to sort out.
Looks like you didn’t quite comprehend my posts😁. If you’re confused, that’s alright, takes repeat reads to sort out. Anyways, I stand by every one of them. As for your “information points”, hopefully you’re done with it! It’s getting tiring…
I have 3 questions, that should clear up confusion:
OK, now I am really confused. You had mentioned yesterday that you stood by every one of your posts. With that kind of confidence, I was open and even hopeful of being wrong myself. Just to make sure:
I’m done buddy! This discussion has already strayed way off-topic. To extend it further by responding to your questions would be violating forum rules. But they’re good questions, don’t get me wrong! Good luck in your research and finding what works for you😉👋
"hcsitas"... I don't understand why you downgrade other people's wishes to use AppleTV 4K 3gen (2022) for the utilization of Hi-Res Lossless audio files that Apple Music offers? Of course, this is a big problem that Apple does not prioritize this for its HiFi users... how difficult can it be??
I also do not understand why Apple is offering real high res files, but there is no other solution then to use a Mac to play it comfortable. For my sake they can create a remote controllable iPod Pro with 24/192 via USB port, a big storage and a good headphone amplifier for music enthusiast. But it's miserable the way it is today.
Thank you, I then stand corrected there. I just did not have another Mac laying around to try it. I only have one (a laptop), and it’s not connected to my stereo using cables.
What do you use to control Apple Music on the Mac Mini, e.g. to select music, start/stop playing etc. from your phone (or iPad)?
New Apple TV 4K and hi-res lossless
