New Apple TV 4K and hi-res lossless

Save your money. The correct answer to this question is NO the new Apple TV 4K, 3rd generation DOES NOT offer “Hi-Res Lossless audio (ALAC up to 24-bit/192 kHz)” as an option. You will find this offered on your iPhone, iPad, and Mac, but not the new Apple TV introduced in November 2022. The best you can do is CD quality (i.e. Lossless) which is not the same as “Apple Digital Master” Hi-Res Audio. I wasted money buying the new Apple TV 4K after being told in the Apple Store that it DID support Apple’s Hi-Res audio. Very dissatisfied with the way Apple has rolled out this Hi-Res feature.

Interesting discussion - because I have the same question.

Lots of confusion in the discussion as well.

First, ALAC vs. FLAC:

Both are mathematical compressions, which means: They are reversible. When you decode the compressed file, you get the exact same bit sequence you had before. This means: Neither one is better than the other - because you’ll get the exact same file back from both, you won’t lose anything.

This is why both are called “lossless compression”.

MP3 or AAC are different: They remove ‘inaudible’ components of the music (e.g. a triangle being played while the guy next to the percussionist blasts his trumpet). Therefore, MP3 or AAC compression (and all the TV formats like Dolby Digital, Atmos etc.) are considered “lossy”.

The format of the music inside the ALAC or FLAC file

The “payload” of an ALAC or FLAC file does not matter - the compression algorithm of both does not even look at it. So, it will never change the bit rate or the sampling rate when you compress a file with FLAC or ALAC.

In theory, you could be compressing a picture or a Word document with FLAC: it’s purely mathematics.

What makes an ALAC or FLAC file a music file is the fact that all meta data (tags like title, artist, album, or cover art etc.) are kept outside of the music payload - which means that you can see these things, e.g. in Apple Music without decompressing the file.

And when you start decompressing, you will get your bit-perfect music payload back.

(One of the key differences between ALAC and FLAC is the storage of metadata: ALAC uses the same format as the lossy AAC/M4A files. FLAC has a different metadata format which Apple does not support, it does not mandatorily follow any standards.)

High-Resolution Music:

The generally accepted definition is: Everything better than a CD is considered Hi-Res. A bit rate higher than 16 bit, and/or a sampling rate greater than 44 KHz makes the file Hi-Res. 24-bit/44 KHz can be considered Hi-Res, and 16-bit/96 KHz is also considered Hi-Res. So technically, Apple's "24 bit, 48 KHz" limits can be considered Hi-Res.

Common Hi-Res files (like Apple’s) typically have both high bit rates and high sampling rates (e.g. 24bit/96 Khz or 24 bit/192 KHz).

That said…:

A FLAC or ALAC file is always lossless - but only as lossless as your original file.

If you re-encode an MP3 file to FLAC, you won’t get the information back that the MP3 encoder removed. You only will get the original music information from the MP3 file back.

If you encode a CD (which technically is a 16 bit/44 KHz WAV file), your FLAC or ALAC will get the exact original CD quality.

Apple:

Apple is offering “Hi-Res” lossless music in their store: It’s encoded in 24 bit/192 KHz. For delivery, it is losslessly compressed using the ALAC algorithm.

Apple apparently does not offer any device that makes use of these Hi-Res files: AirPlay2 maxes out at 24 bit/48 KHz. So does the DAC in the lightning-to-3.5mm cable. Not even the expensive Apple AirPod Max headphones can go beyond 24 bit/48 KHz. The AppleTV would have been the perfect device to allow passing on high-resolution music: In many cases, it is connected to an AV receiver over an HDMI cable. HDMI can handle the high bitrates and frequencies - and pretty much any AV receiver has a potent Digital-to-Analog converter inside. You could keep everything Hi-Res until you are converting back to analog.

Opportunity missed:

From what I read here, Apple latest ATV 4k still does not allow the output of Hi-Res files in Hi-Res over the HDMI output.

The passage about ATV digital audio maxing out at 24 bit/48 KHz was in Apple's documentation for the previous generation of ATV 4k - that’s why many were hoping that Apple would improve on this with the new device and its higher processing power.

The bottom line, I guess: We have to keep waiting. And I will not subscribe to Apple Music - because the biggest advantage it has - the Hi-Res files - evaporates the moment it reaches an Apple device.

Thank you for such clarity.

I wasted $150 on the new (11/2022) Apple TV after being told it would support the highest resolution (24/192) Apple audio files. Why spend $600+ on a Mac Mini just to play audio files the Apple TV should be able to handle directly? IMO this is a major failure by Apple.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

I was replying to the earlier part of the discussion out of frustration because it was painful to read how much you were fighting the OP over semantics of audio compression, ALAC lossless and ALAC hi-res lossless when he was initially correct with respect to how apple is stating them and presenting them to the user.

The main point of Rufus' post soon seemed clear: Will the new ATV 4K transmit a 24-bit/192kHz digital music file (what apple refers to as hi-res lossless in the form of their own lossless audio compression format, ALAC), as does the iphone and ipad (provided a suitable external DAC is connected).

In fairness, it was likely not as clear to you because I arrived at the post with the same question, and you may not have. It seemed that rather than contribute to helping to answer Rufus' question about an apparent inability of the new ATV 4K, you posted first about Dolby Atmos, then argued about container files formats/names for uncompressed and compressed digital audio and felt the need to point out simply that he was wrong about his AIFF statement and left it at that. Then you confused the issue further by posting some false info yourself:

"ALAC is not high resolution lossless but supported on ATV. High resolution lossless is FLAC, AIFF, Wav etc., all also ATV-supported."

Well:

1. ALAC is precisely a format for hi-res lossless audio
2. AIFF and WAV are uncompressed file types, not technically high resolution lossless
3. FLAC is similar to ALAC but "Free" unlike Apple's proprietary format. The only thing correct in your statement above is that FLAC is hi-res lossless.

Then you got a bit nasty, stating "ALAC isn’t High Res, what’s so hard to understand about that?"

Arguably any audio file equal or greater than a 16-bit audio bit depth and 44.1 KHz sample rate is "High Resolution" and ALAC is certainly capable of that. Apple deploys ALAC for up to 24-bit/192KHz audio currently through the music app.

It was just frustrating to see things being steered to an unnecessary confusion quite quickly and I felt bad for Rufus and others attempting to chime in.

RufusJazzDog, and anyone else interested, here is a good article explaining audio file types:

8 audio file types & lossy and lossless compression explained - RouteNote Blog

I have a massive library of FLAC audio files on my server that I stream to a wireless DAC and dedicated hi-fi system in a listening room and via my iphone/ipad through the server app and usb dac but have longed for being able to stream a broad choice of hi-res music on the fly through a service like spotify or apple music (something other than tidal). Noticing the ability on apple music was great and immediately confirmed the ability with my usb DAC and thought of the ATV, which brought me here.

I've used the apple music, spotify, and plex (for audio and video) apps on apple TV tons, so to say that playing audio through the ATV is not a huge deal is, again, not accurate. I also have been a connoisseur of hi-def audio for as long as I can remember, and loathed the period of CDs and MP3s, going through painstaking efforts back then to convert my family's vinyl collection to 24/192 FLAC and ensuring I could replicate it via a quality DAC on our home system or custom digital audio player away from home.

Accessing 24-bit/192KHz + audio streams handily through a service like apple music is game changing in my opinion and would obviously be nice and expected that ATV would support it.

Plex currently works great for accessing/displaying/playing FLAC audio collections from the server, but I have yet to confirm whether the FLAC file is transcoded on the server or handled on the ATV/plex app. The VLC app on ATV can also play FLAC files accessed from the server but the interface is obviously crap, and the lack of gapless audio playback is a bust. Plex on the other hand handles things nicely, from a GUI perspective. However, I have yet to confirm the format and bit depth/sample rate of the audio content being transported over HDMI from the ATV in either of these cases. I am also curious what is being transported currently via the apple music app. A trueHD format with LPCM beds likely and only 16-bit/44Khz :(

The inability of the new ATV 4K to not stream hi-res audio via apple music, as does the iphone and ipad (with an appropriate external DAC hooked up of course) is incredibly unfortunate. I'm sure Apple has its reasons because it is too obvious to be an oversite.

There are still some potential options but not as straightforward and easy, which would be nice for a change when it comes to accessing, converting, and playing high quality digital audio.

Clearing up the misinformation from hcsitas:

1. Atmos is not the same as Hi-Res
2. FLAC is not uncompressed
3. ALAC and FLAC are similar and have nearly identical compression. Both capable of Hi-Res to 24/192
4. Playing music from a phone's Apple Music app, and sending via AirPlay2 to the AppleTV is ONLY using the phone as a visual UI and remote control. The AppleTV is streaming the music itself through it's own internet connection.
5. When utilizing #4 above, the AppleTV remote works, as it would be expected, for Apple Music.
6. When using #4 above for an AppleTV not connected to a TV, in a random sample study, none of the study participants expected a visual UI, akin to what you'd see if it was connected to a TV, to magically display in some sort of quasi-AR fashion. AppleTV, not connected to a TV, controlled by a phone or remote, works as expected for all study participants.
7. AppleTV does not send hi-res audio from any AppleTV app through any means to an external device like an AV processor, regardless of service, or AV Processor attributes (DAC, MQA certification, how well it matches room decor, etc). AppleTV Does not support Hi-Res.

[Edited by Moderator]

ALAC is not high resolution lossless but supported on ATV. High resolution lossless is FLAC, AIFF, Wav etc., all also ATV-supported.

Your original question confused the two (and everyone here) - that’s ok, no problem 😁. Anyway, I believe there’s enough in this thread for you to sort it out; for the rest you can use feedback Feedback - Apple TV - Apple. Good luck!

@BitzgiSF

1. I love my Apple Music subscription.
2. Unlike Apple TV you need Apple hardware to use the Music subscription! There is no possibility to export music from the subscription. Only if it is bought separately from the subscription
3. Why should I make such a complicate setup with multicast services over IP if the Apple hardware can be direct connected via USB on my DAC/amplifier?
4. Believe me. A Mini is the best solution today for hi-res upward of 48kHz. I have spend much time to test iPad, iPhone, Multicast....

1. Streaming Subscription

When Amazon implemented Hi-Res for its music subscription, I had considered a switch. But it was even worse than Apple's, at least back then. Absolutely no hardware that can play it. But I don't know how it is today with the new Fire TV Cube. Some hifi manufacturers also wanted to integrate Amazon as well as Qobuz or Tidal e.g.. I'm not up to date with that Amazon stuff. Qobuz and Tidal are more expensive as a subscription than Apple and streaming hardware that can play it is usually more expensive than a Mini.

2. Music Server witch streams.

If you have music files you own by yourself, you can install Plex Media Server on any OS you want and use its client or UPNP. Or you use kodi on linux. There are many solutions and also (expensive) dedicated hardware from hifi manufactures like naim, auralic and more.

3. Spotify has no hi-res until today and when it comes it will cost twice as much as Apple Music

4. Everything is relative

I agree with RufusJazz, apple is not being clear if the new 4k tv 2022 will support 24 bit 96khz high res lossless audio or 24 bit 192khz.

Apple Music is a game changing product, but using it with convenience of an apple iPhone or iPad is correctly non existent.

you can either plug your device in via a DAC or use a mac via hdmi. No one really wants to do that in their lounge rooms. The Apple TV is the perfect solution. Just needs to support 24 bit and up to at least 96khz

See the following from Apple TV 4K - Technical Specifications - Apple

Audio Formats

HE-AAC (V1), AAC (up to 320 Kbps), protected AAC (from iTunes Store), MP3 (up to 320 Kbps), MP3 VBR, Apple Lossless, FLAC, AIFF, and WAV; AC-3 (Dolby Digital 5.1), E-AC-3 (Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 surround sound), and Dolby Atmos

Adding About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support for discussion reference. Specifically this bit: Apple TV 4K currently doesn’t support Hi-Res Lossless (sample rates greater than 48 kHz). OP is aware of this restriction, posting for completeness of this discussion.

Note that the Apple TV 4K restriction referred to in the above note is specific to content within the Apple Music App. Non-Apple high-resolution files outside the app will play just fine (as I’ve pointed out already).

Dude... it seems you just keep going in circles. This is what you said previously below, BOLD is my reply to you:

"You’re wrong, ALAC is compressed audio, AIFF is uncompressed. Look it up. Both are supported; Apple Lossless = ALAC. 

YOU are contradicting yourself in the same post! First, you say ALAC is compressed audio then you say Apple Lossless = ALAC! Which is it? Is ALAC Compressed or lossless!! Make up your mind!

ALAC is not high resolution lossless but supported on ATV. High resolution lossless is FLAC, AIFF, Wav etc., all also ATV-supported."

ALAC is lossless and it can be high resolution! ALAC is NOT Compressed it is lossless!!! Jesus!

Your original question confused the two (and everyone here) - that’s ok, no problem 😁. Anyway, I believe there’s enough in this thread for you to sort it out; for the rest you can use feedback Feedback - Apple TV - Apple. Good luck!

You are the one confusing everyone! If you can't get something that simple right then just don't post please. Don't bother replying.

I have 3 questions, that should clear up confusion:

1. Is ALAC capable of Hi-Res Lossless streaming up to 24/192? Asking as related to the codec.
2. What is the difference between ALAC and FLAC, outside of one being the proprietary Apple codec and the other being an open standard?
3. Can the latest AppleTV transmit Hi-Res audio, from any codec or AppleTV app, as defined as higher than 24/48, to a Hifi device that is capable of converting that file and sample rate, without downsampling the audio?

OK, now I am really confused. You had mentioned yesterday that you stood by every one of your posts. With that kind of confidence, I was open and even hopeful of being wrong myself. Just to make sure:

1. The three posts you made about ALAC not being Hi-Res is not accurate? What Apple stated is in fact the answer?
2. FLAC is compressed audio, and there's no uncompressed version, despite the 3 posts you say that it is?
3. There is no way to play FLAC, WAV, or AIFF at full Hi-Res from AppleTV to a piece of HiFi gear capable of decoding? There are at least 4 posts that you say AppleTV can play in Hi-Res. You mentioned File Explorer, and I can't get it to play any file of any kind at full Hi-Res. Is there some trick or setting needed?

1. It’s technically accurate - if a 24 bit AIFF or WAV file is converted to ALAC and then back to AIFF/WAV, it gets truncated to 16 bits by the Apple CoreAudio engine. Apparently it’s by design. Hence my statement “Apple High Resolution as defined by Apple for its Music App is another animal entirely”
2. In that same post I state “high resolution music as the rest of the world knows it - uncompressed FLAC or WAV or AIFF files, accessed and played outside of the Music App (using a third party player App)”. FLAC files can be uncompressed, look it up.
3. I was referring to the spec which contains no qualifiers or settings for the formats supported. Apple only limits its comments to what the Music App outputs. Additionally, there is also no way of measuring/verifying bit-speed output other than by listening, which is subjective and depends on not just the external gear, not just the headphones involved, but also the content i.e. that particular file.