New Apple TV 4K and hi-res lossless

Save your money. The correct answer to this question is NO the new Apple TV 4K, 3rd generation DOES NOT offer “Hi-Res Lossless audio (ALAC up to 24-bit/192 kHz)” as an option. You will find this offered on your iPhone, iPad, and Mac, but not the new Apple TV introduced in November 2022. The best you can do is CD quality (i.e. Lossless) which is not the same as “Apple Digital Master” Hi-Res Audio. I wasted money buying the new Apple TV 4K after being told in the Apple Store that it DID support Apple’s Hi-Res audio. Very dissatisfied with the way Apple has rolled out this Hi-Res feature.

Interesting discussion - because I have the same question.

Lots of confusion in the discussion as well.

First, ALAC vs. FLAC:

Both are mathematical compressions, which means: They are reversible. When you decode the compressed file, you get the exact same bit sequence you had before. This means: Neither one is better than the other - because you’ll get the exact same file back from both, you won’t lose anything.

This is why both are called “lossless compression”.

MP3 or AAC are different: They remove ‘inaudible’ components of the music (e.g. a triangle being played while the guy next to the percussionist blasts his trumpet). Therefore, MP3 or AAC compression (and all the TV formats like Dolby Digital, Atmos etc.) are considered “lossy”.

The format of the music inside the ALAC or FLAC file

The “payload” of an ALAC or FLAC file does not matter - the compression algorithm of both does not even look at it. So, it will never change the bit rate or the sampling rate when you compress a file with FLAC or ALAC.

In theory, you could be compressing a picture or a Word document with FLAC: it’s purely mathematics.

What makes an ALAC or FLAC file a music file is the fact that all meta data (tags like title, artist, album, or cover art etc.) are kept outside of the music payload - which means that you can see these things, e.g. in Apple Music without decompressing the file.

And when you start decompressing, you will get your bit-perfect music payload back.

(One of the key differences between ALAC and FLAC is the storage of metadata: ALAC uses the same format as the lossy AAC/M4A files. FLAC has a different metadata format which Apple does not support, it does not mandatorily follow any standards.)

High-Resolution Music:

The generally accepted definition is: Everything better than a CD is considered Hi-Res. A bit rate higher than 16 bit, and/or a sampling rate greater than 44 KHz makes the file Hi-Res. 24-bit/44 KHz can be considered Hi-Res, and 16-bit/96 KHz is also considered Hi-Res. So technically, Apple's "24 bit, 48 KHz" limits can be considered Hi-Res.

Common Hi-Res files (like Apple’s) typically have both high bit rates and high sampling rates (e.g. 24bit/96 Khz or 24 bit/192 KHz).

That said…:

A FLAC or ALAC file is always lossless - but only as lossless as your original file.

If you re-encode an MP3 file to FLAC, you won’t get the information back that the MP3 encoder removed. You only will get the original music information from the MP3 file back.

If you encode a CD (which technically is a 16 bit/44 KHz WAV file), your FLAC or ALAC will get the exact original CD quality.

Apple:

Apple is offering “Hi-Res” lossless music in their store: It’s encoded in 24 bit/192 KHz. For delivery, it is losslessly compressed using the ALAC algorithm.

Apple apparently does not offer any device that makes use of these Hi-Res files: AirPlay2 maxes out at 24 bit/48 KHz. So does the DAC in the lightning-to-3.5mm cable. Not even the expensive Apple AirPod Max headphones can go beyond 24 bit/48 KHz. The AppleTV would have been the perfect device to allow passing on high-resolution music: In many cases, it is connected to an AV receiver over an HDMI cable. HDMI can handle the high bitrates and frequencies - and pretty much any AV receiver has a potent Digital-to-Analog converter inside. You could keep everything Hi-Res until you are converting back to analog.

Opportunity missed:

From what I read here, Apple latest ATV 4k still does not allow the output of Hi-Res files in Hi-Res over the HDMI output.

The passage about ATV digital audio maxing out at 24 bit/48 KHz was in Apple's documentation for the previous generation of ATV 4k - that’s why many were hoping that Apple would improve on this with the new device and its higher processing power.

The bottom line, I guess: We have to keep waiting. And I will not subscribe to Apple Music - because the biggest advantage it has - the Hi-Res files - evaporates the moment it reaches an Apple device.

Clearing up the misinformation from hcsitas:

1. Atmos is not the same as Hi-Res
2. FLAC is not uncompressed
3. ALAC and FLAC are similar and have nearly identical compression. Both capable of Hi-Res to 24/192
4. Playing music from a phone's Apple Music app, and sending via AirPlay2 to the AppleTV is ONLY using the phone as a visual UI and remote control. The AppleTV is streaming the music itself through it's own internet connection.
5. When utilizing #4 above, the AppleTV remote works, as it would be expected, for Apple Music.
6. When using #4 above for an AppleTV not connected to a TV, in a random sample study, none of the study participants expected a visual UI, akin to what you'd see if it was connected to a TV, to magically display in some sort of quasi-AR fashion. AppleTV, not connected to a TV, controlled by a phone or remote, works as expected for all study participants.
7. AppleTV does not send hi-res audio from any AppleTV app through any means to an external device like an AV processor, regardless of service, or AV Processor attributes (DAC, MQA certification, how well it matches room decor, etc). AppleTV Does not support Hi-Res.

[Edited by Moderator]

I have bought a 2022 Apple TV and have the following results:

TV will indeed only play lossless via Airplay / control from iPhone. However! I did note that if you play a 24 bit 96khz track it will still play it at 24bit but down-sample to 44khz and call is lossless as apposed to Hi-Res Lossless.

Can only hope apple update the software, but for now it sounds pretty sweet.

@hcsitas No, it will definitely NOT. I have a 9.000€ AV-Receiver that is capable of 21.1 Ch. Dolby Atmos at 32 Bit/320 kHz and the ATV 4K 2nd Gen. The ATV only gets up to 24 Bit/48 kHz. And yes, I have the Apple TV directly hooked up to my receiver and it still only gets up to 24/48 when on the same HDMI input my PC can easily output 32/320 to the AVR. Please stop telling things that simply just are not true.

Hi all, this has been a good discussion and I thought I would share my experience. Like the OP, I too wondered if ATV 4k would play Hi-res lossless audio since the ATV4k came out years ago and much like everyone else on this thread I learned it cannot which is indeed disappointing. This fact is one reason I have not cancelled my subscription to Amazon Music HD. Amazon music service can stream up to 24bit/192kHz via HDMI (iPhone is limited to 24bit/48kHz with its internal DAC) and using an Amazon Fire Stick I can listen to music at max resolution quite easily on my sound system.

I also subscribe to Apply Music with an ATV4K connected to the same sound system as the fire stick which gives me an opportunity to compare subjective sound quality between Amazon and Apple with the same hardware and settings.

I listen to music through a Denon x6500H AVR with EQ calibration using Denon's built in audyssey calibration feature with all dynamic compression turned off listening at reference level. The speakers are Polk monitor 60 series II - not especially high end but sound very good to me with a bright sound profile which is what I prefer.

Here is what I have concluded after many hours of comparing the sound quality between both services - song for song. This is just my subjective opinion of course:

• Amazon Ultra HD at 24bit/192kHz sounds noticeably better than Apple Lossless at 24bit/48kHz. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone I suppose but I will say both sound great but there are indeed differences in sound when comparing side x side.

• To my surprise Amazon HD at 24bit/48kHz also sounds better than Apple Lossless at 24bit/48kHz. I especially hear the difference at the higher frequencies. I don't know if this is simply an artifact of the difference in ALAC vs FLAC encoding but the higher frequency sounds - such as the crash or tapping of cymbals or the higher pitch sounds from a violin to sound more accurate and distinct from the other instruments in the background.

I enjoy listening to Amazon more than apple because of this but I will be honest and say under 95% of casual listening, I can't complain about Apple music sound quality because Apple lossless still sounds very good.

It’s a disgraceful shambles if you ask me. Apple Music streams some music in 24/192. But it’s own Apple TV 4k and Airplay 2 reduces that to 24/48 ! And if you use iTunes on Windows you only get 256kbs at best. So you need an iPhone or Mac or iPad, with a dongle connected to an external dac ( that can decode 24/192) to hear what they are streaming as it was intended. How I’d Love to see Apple enter the hifi separates world, with a streamer that outputs whatever is input to my amplifier. Nice screen for artwork, outputs for hdmi, rca, fully balanced headphones ….

Great, happy to hear! Apple High Resolution as defined by Apple for its Music App is another animal entirely, however. It won’t play on your TVs (as you’ve already pointed out). What will play is high resolution music as the rest of the world knows it - uncompressed FLAC or WAV or AIFF files, accessed and played outside of the Music App (using a third party player App).

Adding About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support for discussion reference. Specifically this bit: Apple TV 4K currently doesn’t support Hi-Res Lossless (sample rates greater than 48 kHz). OP is aware of this restriction, posting for completeness of this discussion.

Note that the Apple TV 4K restriction referred to in the above note is specific to content within the Apple Music App. Non-Apple high-resolution files outside the app will play just fine (as I’ve pointed out already).

From what I understand Apple Music’s High-Resolution Lossless format goes up to 24-bit/192kHz 

The Apple Lossless Encoder (and decoder) were released as open source software under the Apache License version 2.0 on October 27, 2011.

ATV cannot play anything higher than 24-bit 48kHz lossless through HDMI. Mine can't though some Dolby Atmos tracks sound pretty good, but they are not hi-res just "spacial".

I can play hi-res Apple music from iPad or iPhone using lightning / USB to a DAC or my receiver.

I can't waste any more time trying to figure out what contradictions hcsitas is saying now. If you want to play hi-res (above 24/48) from any source it can't be through ATV at present anyway, but it can be through iPad or iPhone through a DAC or Receiver. You can even load or play from the network DSF or very hi-res PCM on those devices if you have an app capable. Don't confuse "compressed" with "lossy". ALAC and FLAC or ANY LOSSLESS format end up with the exact same bits after decoded... the files are just smaller. Neither has been proven "superior".

Well, I spent an hour trying to find out calling Apple about purchasing the new Apple TV. One person told me it does support Hi-Rez audio and basically sent me the specs in an email, which do not say that. Called back again and got to someone higher up in tech I guess who at least understood my question about the new Apple TV and basically all they did was read the specs and then say that it will not play 24-bit 192kHz high resolution audio.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

I was replying to the earlier part of the discussion out of frustration because it was painful to read how much you were fighting the OP over semantics of audio compression, ALAC lossless and ALAC hi-res lossless when he was initially correct with respect to how apple is stating them and presenting them to the user.

The main point of Rufus' post soon seemed clear: Will the new ATV 4K transmit a 24-bit/192kHz digital music file (what apple refers to as hi-res lossless in the form of their own lossless audio compression format, ALAC), as does the iphone and ipad (provided a suitable external DAC is connected).

In fairness, it was likely not as clear to you because I arrived at the post with the same question, and you may not have. It seemed that rather than contribute to helping to answer Rufus' question about an apparent inability of the new ATV 4K, you posted first about Dolby Atmos, then argued about container files formats/names for uncompressed and compressed digital audio and felt the need to point out simply that he was wrong about his AIFF statement and left it at that. Then you confused the issue further by posting some false info yourself:

"ALAC is not high resolution lossless but supported on ATV. High resolution lossless is FLAC, AIFF, Wav etc., all also ATV-supported."

Well:

1. ALAC is precisely a format for hi-res lossless audio
2. AIFF and WAV are uncompressed file types, not technically high resolution lossless
3. FLAC is similar to ALAC but "Free" unlike Apple's proprietary format. The only thing correct in your statement above is that FLAC is hi-res lossless.

Then you got a bit nasty, stating "ALAC isn’t High Res, what’s so hard to understand about that?"

Arguably any audio file equal or greater than a 16-bit audio bit depth and 44.1 KHz sample rate is "High Resolution" and ALAC is certainly capable of that. Apple deploys ALAC for up to 24-bit/192KHz audio currently through the music app.

It was just frustrating to see things being steered to an unnecessary confusion quite quickly and I felt bad for Rufus and others attempting to chime in.

RufusJazzDog, and anyone else interested, here is a good article explaining audio file types:

8 audio file types & lossy and lossless compression explained - RouteNote Blog

I have a massive library of FLAC audio files on my server that I stream to a wireless DAC and dedicated hi-fi system in a listening room and via my iphone/ipad through the server app and usb dac but have longed for being able to stream a broad choice of hi-res music on the fly through a service like spotify or apple music (something other than tidal). Noticing the ability on apple music was great and immediately confirmed the ability with my usb DAC and thought of the ATV, which brought me here.

I've used the apple music, spotify, and plex (for audio and video) apps on apple TV tons, so to say that playing audio through the ATV is not a huge deal is, again, not accurate. I also have been a connoisseur of hi-def audio for as long as I can remember, and loathed the period of CDs and MP3s, going through painstaking efforts back then to convert my family's vinyl collection to 24/192 FLAC and ensuring I could replicate it via a quality DAC on our home system or custom digital audio player away from home.

Accessing 24-bit/192KHz + audio streams handily through a service like apple music is game changing in my opinion and would obviously be nice and expected that ATV would support it.

Plex currently works great for accessing/displaying/playing FLAC audio collections from the server, but I have yet to confirm whether the FLAC file is transcoded on the server or handled on the ATV/plex app. The VLC app on ATV can also play FLAC files accessed from the server but the interface is obviously crap, and the lack of gapless audio playback is a bust. Plex on the other hand handles things nicely, from a GUI perspective. However, I have yet to confirm the format and bit depth/sample rate of the audio content being transported over HDMI from the ATV in either of these cases. I am also curious what is being transported currently via the apple music app. A trueHD format with LPCM beds likely and only 16-bit/44Khz :(

The inability of the new ATV 4K to not stream hi-res audio via apple music, as does the iphone and ipad (with an appropriate external DAC hooked up of course) is incredibly unfortunate. I'm sure Apple has its reasons because it is too obvious to be an oversite.

There are still some potential options but not as straightforward and easy, which would be nice for a change when it comes to accessing, converting, and playing high quality digital audio.

Apple TV 4K can't stream hi-res audio via Apple Music - amen to that. I stand by everything in my posts despite your and others' assertions to the contrary. It doesn't really matter - find alternate solutions outside of ATV for high-resolution, that is the only (real) option available. For frustrations about what the ATV can or can't do, use Feedback. Good luck!

Despite the efforts of previous posters to confuse matters, one thing remains clear; we would all like an audiophile version of the ATV that delivers the high resolution lossless audio already available via the Music app. If it’s like previous ATVs, the ATV 4k 3rd gen will downsample everything to 24bit 48khz. Now I suspect that none of us on this thread could tell the difference between that and, say, 24/192; but we are all a little miffed that Apple can’t marry its best-in-class user interface to best-in-class audio performance. Alternatives are soooo much clunkier and more expensive - you probably have to look at the HifiRose RS150b for as slick an interface - and that’s £4 grand… So, I will keep on listening to my ATV. And you know what - when I switch to high-resolution via USB on my Mac Mini, I don’t hear any difference in quality whatsoever. Probably an earwax thing.