bug tracking

Yes I normally use ProRes Raw with my Ninja V and Nikon cameras, as it is actually way better than ProRes 422 for grading in Final Cut. However, I shot a few clips in ProRes (HLG and Log) with the Ninja to see what might be happening here. It seems that Final Cut (and Quicktime) interpret HLG and Log Pro as Rec.709 and if Color Conform is left on automatic some strange and probably undesirable transformations occur. There are too many permutations to go into detail but it is easy to fix any problems by modifying the Color Conform or just turning them off. I don't think there is any bug though. It is probably down to the way the cameras / recorders write the metadata.

If grading HDR only as the OP says he does, I think it is better to work in a Rec.2020 PQ project than in HLG as the waveform scopes give the correct ranges whereas the waveform scopes in a HLG project are effectively SDR. If an SDR version is required, it is probably easier to do a second grade rather than hope HLG works as it is supposed to (I have never managed to get it working properly). Unless the OP has a particular reason to work in ProRes, it might be a lot easier to work in ProRes Raw which the Sony A7Siii can do with the Ninja V with no modification (unlike the Nikons which need a paid firmware upgrade)

The user has to be careful of what's going on as FCP can be overly "helpful." If you create an HLG project and drop the Nikon file into it, the application will change the project to 709 rather than auto color conforming the clip. If you manually change the project back to HLG it will then do the correct conform for the clip to HDR.

I'm thinking something is happening in the Ninja that shouldn't be. Maybe the same sort of thing. It sees what it thinks is 709 and sets that as the recording gamut.

I downloaded the GreenRazorFish clip and it looks absolutely fine with a little bit of grading. Wide Gamut Library, HLG2020 project or HDR PQ project. I never use the automatic white balance tools in Final Cut. It does some weird stuff to the colors but it is not too dark and that is really a diversion.

You must be doing something wrong but what beats me. Are you using a Wide Gamut Library and a (calibrated) HDR screen?

There is no bug. You do seen to have a habit of saying how things should work without understanding how FCP actually works. Filing a bug report without understanding the program is a bit silly to be honest. As I said way back I would advise you to do a Ripple Training Core Training paid tutorial if you are serious about using the program.

The sample clips are way too large by the way. I can't download a 15GB file. You could trim them in Quicktime to a couple of seconds.

Can you post screenshots of your project properties and the video specs from Invisor or MediaInfo? What camera shot the media? Would it be possible to share a clip using Dropbox or WeTransfer? A link you post will appear in the email notifications.

adiverslife wrote: However, that does not mean it does not have problems. All software has bugs and features. For example, HDR support in FCP was originally quite poor.

Actually HDR support in Final Cut is now excellent and easy to use. It remains a bit of a minefield across the board. You want to try DaVinci Resolve (although that is also excellent once you work your way through the vast number of options). You should not assume your problems are due to a bug. It is far more likely that you are missing something - maybe something to do with the new automatic Color Conform. If you post a clip I'm happy to take a look as well.

I think that's what's happening as well. The Ninja file is incorrectly read. I don't know why. The ProRes 2020 HLG clips I created in Compressor work correctly as I would expect as HDR media in a wide gamut library in an HDR project. It would be nice to see a file generated by the Ninja.

adiverslife wrote:

1. To film in raw you must overexpose making your image hard to process under water.

2. Raw takes up a LOT of space.

3. So, it sounds like FCP really does not handle HLG HDR well. That is unfortunate as that is what the IPhone shoots.

I'm not trying to convince you to shoot raw but I would like to clarify a couple of things. Firstly, I don't overexpose when shooting raw. This is a misconception about exposing for raw video I think. The most important thing is to make sure that the highlights are not clipping (using waveform/parade monitors) as there is no way back from clipped highlights. I make sure that I don't underexpose as noise becomes a serious issue then. I handle the rest in post. Final Cut has reasonably good options for raw processing although this varies between camera makes I believe.

The normal quality ProRes Raw on the Ninja is a bit bigger than ProRes 422 but the differences are not huge.

I don't think there should be any problem processing HLG to HDR in Final Cut once you get your settings right. I find it better to grade HLG material with a PQ project. That should be fine if you are only delivering HDR.

I just tried a H.265 clip shot in HLG from the Z9 and it is tagged as HLG. It works fine in FCP in a HLG 2020 project and there is no color conforming. It looks great in HDR and a little bit of tweaking makes it look acceptable in SDR on an SDR monitor as well which I think is the way HLG is supposed to work. So maybe it's Nikon's implemenation of ProRes (or not). I've not upgraded the Ninja to shoot H.265 which is an extra paid option which I am unlilkely to use.

I'm not seeing what you describe with the HLG file from the Ninja in a HLG 2020 project. FCP tries to color conform it to 75% HDR (HLG) and it would need quite a bit of work to get it looking good.

I'm going to have to get on with some other stuff as this is pretty ming-boggling but I'm happy to provide you some more files if you want from the Z9 if you want to investigate further.

Thanks very much for uploading the clips. They work really well I find. It looks like the original QT file in both the browser and the project. I have no experience diving so no idea what it should look like. Balance color basically white balances off the sand and does increase the contrast a lot, darkening the overall look. Pushing up the luma and tweaking it a bit made it look quite good I thought.

OK have it your own way. Call it what you like and it may or may not work very well but it's definitely not a bug. These auto color balance tools are always dubious at best whether it is Final Cut, Lightroom, Photoshop etc. It is an averaging process over the image which is very hit and miss, depending on the content of the image. I never use them. If I have not shot a color checker (see the files I uploaded) then I work by eye and experience.

Don't confuse these auto color balance tools with the new Color Conform tool in FCP10.6.6 either. This is completely different as it tries to automatically set the color space based on the metadata. In this case FCP picks up the metadata correctly. The HLG file I posted is not tagged correctly which is now obviously a Nikon and not a Ninja thing.

Anyway best of luck with it all.

I found this very helpful when I started dealing with more and more HDR footage:

Use automatic color management and Color Conform in Final Cut Pro for Mac - Apple Support

I'm getting some nice results with the underwater footage with very, very minimal manual color correction (no automatic anything is used). It's fun to play with and learn from. I'm guessing on saturation levels however, but I didn't boost it much at all.

It's interesting that the screenshot with the fish shows the sand blown out and overall levels increased when in my FCP Viewer it's not at all, I'm guessing because it's a .png. Here's a .heic of the fish frame sent through pixelmator Pro to just make it smaller:

It looks like it's hard to retain the correct gamma/brightness levels in screenshots of HDR 2020 images but all this is still a bit new to me. Maybe I'm missing something?

I think you are carrying over too many concepts about how Final Cut Pro should work rather than how it actually works. Every NLE is different and Final Cut Pro is very well designed and easy to use once you learn the basics. I would recommend you check out Ripple Training and do their basic Core Training course which would leave you in a very good position going forwards. They are excellent and they are currently running a discount on their tutorials as well. Be assured that once you get Final Cut working, your life becomes easier in terms of color management.

In relation to your current problem, I wonder if the heart of this is in the Color Conform settings. I doubt it has anything to do with scaling as this should not have any effect on color or luminosity.