Level 1

10 points

bug tracking

I am evaulating FCP to decide whether to move from Premier Pro to FCP. I am an underwater cinematographer and one bug I have found is that when you balance the color in HDR footage for an HDR deliverable video (not using a Rec.709 coversion) is that FCP burries the brightness way down and I have to spend a lot of cycles bringing it back up. The images is WAY darker than the original image. White/color balance is one of the most important adjustments in underwater film making as you use it to clean up the water. This problem does not happen when you use HDRTools to convert to rec.709 and work with that. I filed a bug but how do I track it to see if Apple has corrected it? For me this one is a show stopper as I only deliver HDR video now on our YouTube channel A Diver's Life. I also want to assess how responsive Apple is vs. Adobe to problems like this. Is there a way to track the bugs you flied and to speak with a support person about it? I can do this with Creative Cloud.

Anyone else experienced this? I am relatively new to FCP so perhaps I am missing something. The project is wide gamut rec. 2020 HLG.

Posted on Jul 7, 2023 4:33 AM

Top-ranking reply

Clint Gryke

Level 2

179 points

Posted on Jul 7, 2023 1:28 PM

Yes I normally use ProRes Raw with my Ninja V and Nikon cameras, as it is actually way better than ProRes 422 for grading in Final Cut. However, I shot a few clips in ProRes (HLG and Log) with the Ninja to see what might be happening here. It seems that Final Cut (and Quicktime) interpret HLG and Log Pro as Rec.709 and if Color Conform is left on automatic some strange and probably undesirable transformations occur. There are too many permutations to go into detail but it is easy to fix any problems by modifying the Color Conform or just turning them off. I don't think there is any bug though. It is probably down to the way the cameras / recorders write the metadata.

If grading HDR only as the OP says he does, I think it is better to work in a Rec.2020 PQ project than in HLG as the waveform scopes give the correct ranges whereas the waveform scopes in a HLG project are effectively SDR. If an SDR version is required, it is probably easier to do a second grade rather than hope HLG works as it is supposed to (I have never managed to get it working properly). Unless the OP has a particular reason to work in ProRes, it might be a lot easier to work in ProRes Raw which the Sony A7Siii can do with the Ninja V with no modification (unlike the Nikons which need a paid firmware upgrade)

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adiverslife Author

Level 1

10 points

Jul 7, 2023 1:31 PM in response to Tom Wolsky

Spacial conform is not checkable and only has one submenu item "Reset Parameters" which I did. It is a 4k clip on an HD timeline so I should be able to choose none which for me would be the best as then I would know that the the scaling wold work the way I expect it to. I even dragged a second copy of the clip onto the HD timeline and it still shows the same submenu and is not checkable.

adiverslife Author

Level 1

10 points

Jul 7, 2023 1:59 PM in response to Clint Gryke

Clint I don't use RAW for numerous reasons.

To film in raw you must overexpose making your image hard to process under water. I would have to configure the Sony camera for Raw (the second clean ISO range starts at 12000 ISO). When shooting underwater you have to contend with currents, moving wildlife, buoyancy, clouds moving overhead, silty water, sunlight refraction issues, etc.
Raw takes up a LOT of space.
Most important reason for using HLG: I shoot in HLG because the Sony A7Siii has ISO noise ranges that are better suited for underwater shooting and provides a wide dynamic range (stops close to RAW). PQ is nowhere close on the Sony.

So, it sounds like FCP really does not handle HLG HDR well. That is unfortunate as that is what the IPhone shoots. Thank you for the suggestion on Color Conform. I will look into that to see if turning that off helps.

[Link Edited by Moderator]

Jul 9, 2023 7:22 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

Just uploaded a couple of ProRes clips taken on Z6II / Ninja V to Dropbox - links below. No editing. One is the normal NLog version and the other is HLG - filenames distinguish them. I hope I'm doing this right.

ProRes NLog file

ProRes HLG file

Jul 9, 2023 8:11 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

Don't mention it Tom. It's interesting to try to decipher what is happening although I tend to just shoot raw mainly so it does not affect what I do really.

I don't know if that is a Nikon thing or if other brands do the same. I just shot a couple of clips on a Z9 and they are tagged Rec709 as well. It would be interesting to see a clip from the Sony. I suspect it would be the same.

If you create a wide gamut library, create a HLG 2020 project and then add the HLG clip to the timeline with Color Conform set to Auto, FCP recognises it as HLG and conforms it from Rec709 to 75% HDR (HLG). The result looks very flat but could easily be graded.

It does something similar with the log file, conforming it to HDR PQ if it is added to a HDR PQ timeline, but only if the Nikon N-Log transform is not applied. Applying the Nikon LU gives best results for out of the box grading.

Too many permutations I'm afraid.

adiverslife Author

Level 1

10 points

Jul 10, 2023 12:02 PM in response to Clint Gryke

I think you missed my point regarding the Sony camera I have. to get a clean ISO range the next major iso range that is clean in raw format is 12000 up. That is very bright. You have to over expose to get rid of the noise. I have no idea what camera you have but I hope we can agree that all cameras are different. 12000 iso is way too high. I am not shooting i clear air above water. You add junk in the water and that higher exposure range is a nightmare.

adiverslife Author

Level 1

10 points

Jul 11, 2023 4:24 AM in response to adiverslife

Here are the links to the two video clips pulled off the Ninja.

GreenRazorFish

Staghorn field

If you hit the automatic color balance (especially in the staghorn field the image becomes insanley dark forcing me to bring back up the brightness a lot.

If I then choose to do hit the manual white balance it is much better but still too dark.

Neither should happen. I capture using HLG 4k 6 fps BT.2020 (same as rec.2020) and send through HDMI to the Ninja V+ which records in Apple Pro Res HQ (also BT.2020)I have the timeline configured for HD HLG at 29.97 fps.

I think if you drop the video on the same time line you will see that the video goes very dark. I don't know if this has to do with some aberration left over from Rec.709.

We have not delivered content in Rec.709 in over a year as all mobile devices and higher end 4kUHD tvs support HDR. Also the latest DJI drones support HDR and HLG. Customer are loving the quality difference over Rec.709.

adiverslife Author

Level 1

10 points

Jul 11, 2023 6:54 AM in response to Clint Gryke

I am not doing that. Manual white balance should work however. Typically, both in and out of the water you point your white tool to the sand or something approximating white ... could be a grey or white card. The color balance should then be properly adjusted. When diving you have to do this every 10-15 feet. You fine tune it in post.

I am not confusing with color conform. I understand what that is trying to do. With white balance you are simlply trying to remove what makes the water not clear out but pointing to something that shoud be white

and removing what is not making it white. It is less important for photography as usually close to the subject and have bright lights to control the lighting.

adiverslife Author

Level 1

10 points

Jul 7, 2023 4:53 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

sure I can send you a clip via wetransfer. What is your email? Here is the project screenshot.

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

Jul 7, 2023 5:34 AM in response to adiverslife

the video specs from Invisor or MediaInfo? What camera shot the media?

You can post the WeTransfer link here and it will appear in email notifications.

adiverslife Author

Level 1

10 points

Jul 7, 2023 5:57 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

It was shot with a Sony A7Siii transferred to an Atomos Ninja V+ recorded in Apple Pro Res HQ. The Sony records captures in Rec.2020 HLG at roughly 60fps. Does this image help?

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

Jul 7, 2023 6:18 AM in response to adiverslife

Thanks. Definitely would like to see the file. So you're scaling it down in the project and changing the frame rate. I wonder if that's a factor.

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

Jul 7, 2023 10:32 AM in response to adiverslife

Send it to yourself and post the link you receive here. It will appear in email notifications though removed from the forum.

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

Jul 7, 2023 10:34 AM in response to adiverslife

If you don’t want it to scale select the clips in the browser and change the Spatial Conform to none. You can do all the clips at once.

adiverslife Author

Level 1

10 points

Jul 7, 2023 10:57 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

That feature is there but no checkbox is available. Is that because I put it on an HD timeline?

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

Jul 7, 2023 11:05 AM in response to adiverslife

Click the Show/Hide button and select None from the popup.

P.S. this will not change clips already in the timeline. There you can select them all and change to None.

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bug tracking