java is deprecated?

CharlesEGrant wrote:
Sure, I can hope that Oracle or a third party will step up and write a JVM for OS X

But that is exactly the point I'm trying to make here. The last time all the MacOS X Java developers got all upset was when Apple was "years behind" releasing a Java 6 JVM. Then they released it, but it was 64-bit only - the horror! Then they finally had a 32 and 64 bit Java 6, but that wasn't very long ago. The whole time I tried to tell people to just run OpenJDK on their Macs if they absolutely had to have Java 6. There has been a third party JVM for quite a while.

CharlesEGrant wrote:
Huh? The gcc compiler included with XCODE is a heavily modified (by Apple) version of GCC.

It is still open source. How do you know Apple doesn't intend to do the same thing and shift their support to OpenJDK? Maybe they would start by changing Java Preferences to include 3rd party JVMs. Oh wait, they just did that...

GCC deprecated? What on earth are you talking about?

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it 🙂 Apple has made no secret that they are moving to LLVM and clang.

some of the tools I use do depend on Java (Tomcat).

But wait! Apple doesn't ship their own build of Tomcat! How can you possibly use it then?

etresoft wrote:

CharlesEGrant wrote:
Huh? The gcc compiler included with XCODE is a heavily modified (by Apple) version of GCC.

It is still open source. How do you know Apple doesn't intend to do the same thing and shift their support to OpenJDK? Maybe they would start by changing Java Preferences to include 3rd party JVMs. Oh wait, they just did that...

Sorry, my quote selection made my point unintelligible. I wasn't disputing that it was open source, I was disputing the implication that Apple doesn't provide customized compilers for languages other then Java. To the contrary, they've always provided a customized version of GCC.

etresoft wrote:

CharlesEGrant wrote:
GCC deprecated? What on earth are you talking about?

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it 🙂 Apple has made no secret that they are moving to LLVM and clang.

I'm dimly aware of clang and LLVM, but I submit there is a significant difference between "has been deprecated" and "may be deprecated sometime in the indefinite future". If and when Apple actually deprecates GCC I'll pitch a hissy fit then too.

etresoft wrote:

CharlesEGrant wrote:
Sure, I can hope that Oracle or a third party will step up and write a JVM for OS X

But that is exactly the point I'm trying to make here. The last time all the MacOS X Java developers got all upset was when Apple was "years behind" releasing a Java 6 JVM. Then they released it, but it was 64-bit only - the horror! Then they finally had a 32 and 64 bit Java 6, but that wasn't very long ago. The whole time I tried to tell people to just run OpenJDK on their Macs if they absolutely had to have Java 6. There has been a third party JVM for quite a while.

Thank you for pointing out the OpenJDK. I'll confess to it being completely off my radar.

etresoft wrote:

CharlesEGrant wrote:
some of the tools I use do depend on Java (Tomcat).

But wait! Apple doesn't ship their own build of Tomcat! How can you possibly use it then?

While, I thank you for pointing out the OpenJDK, I'll have to point out that it hardly seems to be a drop in replacement for the JVM Apple has been providing. It looks like OpenJDK meets that Java language standards and all, but the SoyLatte binary distribution is X11 rather then native, and has licensing requirements (JRL). I don't mind building from source, but it adds a huge layer of complication for the end-users I support. The more dependencies our users have to install the more likely they are to say, the **** with it (not to mention the increasing complexity of providing installation support).

Your point that an alternative JDK already exists is important, but I still think you are being glib about the effect on a significant community of developers. Why would I continue to buy Apple hardware when my primary task is now harder under OS X then it is under Linux or, god forbid, Windows?

Message was edited by: CharlesEGrant, slight change in wording of first paragraph

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I do want to point out that it's not like Java developers/users are a bunch of unwashed hoboes who showed up uninvited in Apple's front parlor. Apple includes Java support as one of the strengths of the Mac as a platform for developing scientific software: http://www.apple.com/science/whymac/righttool.html

Ironically the section on Macs in science also contains a profile of James Gosling, focusing on why the Mac is a superior platform for Java development: http://www.apple.com/science/profiles/gosling/

It's just marketing literature I know, but you can't blame customers for being tetchy when the features they were sold on are pulled from the product.

Message was edited by: CharlesEGrant fixed typo in last sentence

My "fault" was to be critical about the business model and they rated it as not being constrcutive but a "rant" (3)- and that is a bit of grey area. It was not about a product but Apple in hole. And that probably was the problem.

By removing posts like mine they will not be able to stop all critical comments about them! It will only happen else were. And will be even more harsh because of the censorship they are applying.

My "fault" was to be critical about the business model

Then you violated more than one part of the [terms of use of these forums|http://discussions.apple.com/help.jspa#terms]. See item 2.1.2, which does not allow discussing Apple policies. These are user-to-user technical forums, and as such discussion of Apple policies is not remotely on topic. Not to mention that it almost always will also involve speculation, which is also banned here.

By removing posts like mine they will not be able to stop all critical comments about them! It will only happen else were. And will be even more harsh because of the censorship they are applying.

Who cares? I personally am thankful that Apple keeps that kind of crap off these forums so we can focus on being more productive. You want to call it censorship, that's your business, but if you think Apple is routinely censoring posts that make them look bad, you obviously have not perused these forums very much.

CharlesEGrant wrote:
they've always provided a customized version of GCC.

But they build the OS(es) using GCC so they have quite an investment there. Just because they don't have a custom version of something doesn't mean they are discontinuing support it. Anyone who wants to run Java on the Mac will be able to continue to do so providing there is a Java compiler available. And if there isn't? That would mean that Java would would have even less presence on current MacOS X than FORTRAN.

I'm dimly aware of clang and LLVM, but I submit there is a significant difference between "has been deprecated" and "may be deprecated sometime in the indefinite future". If and when Apple actually deprecates GCC I'll pitch a hissy fit then too.

In that case, it seems that GCC is even more deprecated than Java. The current MacOS X includes the current version of Java and Apple has pledged to support that Java throughout the Leopard and Snow Leopard support cycle. The "current" version of Apple's GCC is over 3 years old and the only time Apple mentions GCC anymore is to compare it unfavorably to LLVM and clang. Maybe you should join the Mac Developer program to get a closer look at what Apple is doing. Apple is focused on the future, and that isn't Java.

While, I thank you for pointing out the OpenJDK, I'll have to point out that it hardly seems to be a drop in replacement for the JVM Apple has been providing. It looks like OpenJDK meets that Java language standards and all, but the SoyLatte binary distribution is X11 rather then native, and has licensing requirements (JRL). I don't mind building from source, but it adds a huge layer of complication for the end-users I support. The more dependencies our users have to install the more likely they are to say, the **** with it (not to mention the increasing complexity of providing installation support).

But I thought everyone was dumping Java development on Macs for Linux? All that is much better on Linux, huh?

Your point that an alternative JDK already exists is important, but I still think you are being glib about the effect on a significant community of developers.

Absolutely. I really haven't been much of a Java fan since I had to rewrite that big project in 1997 because Java 1.1 deprecated the entire UI API. That was even the version where "@deprecated" was added to the Java language itself. Sorry Java, you reap what you sow.

Why would I continue to buy Apple hardware when my primary task is now harder under OS X then it is under Linux or, god forbid, Windows?

Now? What exactly has changed? All Apple has said is that the future isn't guaranteed. Why is that such a shock?

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I do want to point out that it's not like Java developers/users are a bunch of unwashed hoboes who showed up uninvited in Apple's front parlor. Apple includes Java support as one of the strengths of the Mac as a platform for developing scientific software: http://www.apple.com/science/whymac/righttool.html

I'm sorry. Where have you been the last 20 years? Were you shocked when Apple deprecated MFS, MacOS, MPW, Appletalk, Carbon, etc. All technology gets touted and praised, and then deprecated when something new comes along.

Ironically the section on Macs in science also contains a profile of James Gosling, focusing on why the Mac is a superior platform for Java development: http://www.apple.com/science/profiles/gosling/

You mean the creator of Java? Didn't he just quit Oracle for reasons unsaid? "Just about anything I could say that would be accurate and honest would do more harm than good." I think you are just using Apple as a target for your angst about the future of Java as a language.

It's just marketing literature I know, but you can't blame customers for being tetchy when the features they were sold on are pulled from the product.

Again, nothing has been pulled. The current version of Java is in the current version of MacOS X and support for Java is as guaranteed as support for that version of the OS. All bets are off for the new version, but then, that's always been true for any new version of anything.

CharlesEGrant wrote:

etresoft wrote:
But who writes Java applications for the desktop? Anyone other than IBM and DoD? Any desktop Java applications will be replaced with HTML5 and Javascript. There is probably quite a bit of server-side Java working going on, but do these people use the Apple Java? Apple knows exactly how popular Java is and has decided it isn't worth their time to build their own. People still use Macs to develop in Lisp and FORTRAN without the benefit of an Apple-branded compiler. It will be the same for Java.

Try to bear in mind that software development is a very big world, and just because you are personally ignorant of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

There are a few hundred thousand academics and scientists around the world who are writing number crunching apps and libraries in Java because they are reasonably cross-platform, but also perform reasonably well. HTML5 is completely irrelevant to what we're doing, and Javascript is never going to cut the mustard for numerical work, because that's not what it's designed for. I mostly work in C and Python, but I wrote a Java desktop app earlier this year. The primary applications I work on are written in C, but depend on the Tomcat Java web application server to present them as a web services. And yes, I do run it under OS X. It runs on Linux too of course, but I'm certainly not going to be buying any Apple hardware in order to install Linux on it. Since I've personally purchased about $10,000 of apple hardware in the last 6 years, I would think that would given Apple some pause. Sure, I can hope that Oracle or a third party will step up and write a JVM for OS X, but it really upsets my boss when I have words like "hope" in my project schedules.

The academic/scientific market is small relative to the theoretical general consumer market, but in the past it has made up a significant chunk of Apple's market share for computers. If Apple want's to dump that market segment, that's their business. But as a long standing customer I just want them to know that they're heading down a track that means their product will no longer meet my needs.

Message was edited by: CharlesEGrant to correct a couple of errors in grammar.

Right on.

etresoft wrote:
But who writes Java applications for the desktop? Anyone other than IBM and DoD? Any desktop Java applications will be replaced with HTML5 and Javascript. There is probably quite a bit of server-side Java working going on, but do these people use the Apple Java? Apple knows exactly how popular Java is and has decided it isn't worth their time to build their own. People still use Macs to develop in Lisp and FORTRAN without the benefit of an Apple-branded compiler. It will be the same for Java.

Lots of people, including me. Again HTML5 is not meant to create desktop applications so I wouldn't compare it to Java on the desktop. Java is a very popular language and just because you don't know much about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have created many Java desktop applications. When I first started using Java I expected it to be kind of limited but to tell you the truth I was pleasantly surprised that so far I have been able to make anything I can imagine. So in my professional opinion i'd say Java is extensively used for a wide variety of tasks on all platforms and is far from being unpopular.

Lets try and get back on topic, this argument is obviously not going to get anywhere. Remember we were talking about why Apple deprecated Java?

AppleGeek692 wrote:
HTML5 is not meant to create desktop applications

Nobody told Apple that. On iOS, you can't tell any difference between an Objective-C app and a Javascript app. On the desktop, the only stumbling block is the menu, and they are working on that.

Java is a very popular language and just because you don't know much about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have created many Java desktop applications. When I first started using Java I expected it to be kind of limited but to tell you the truth I was pleasantly surprised that so far I have been able to make anything I can imagine. So in my professional opinion i'd say Java is extensively used for a wide variety of tasks on all platforms and is far from being unpopular.

I never said it was unpopular, just deprecated 🙂 The last time I used Java was 2006 and I was pleasantly surprised with it. That doesn't mean I would ever use it for the future. It isn't a popularity contest. If it were, Microsoft would have won long ago.

Lets try and get back on topic, this argument is obviously not going to get anywhere. Remember we were talking about why Apple deprecated Java?

Unfortunately, that would just be speculation and is against the Apple Discussions Terms of Use. What does it matter anyway? The question is, does Apple's deprecation of their Apple-built JVM version immediately render Mac OS X dead to all Java developers? I say it doesn't because there is already a 3rd party JVM you can use on MacOS X. All Apple has said is that there might not be an Apple-built JVM in 10.7 next year.

You know, at this rate, the next thing you know they're going to deprecate the [floppy drive|http://macosx.com/forums/mac-os-x-system-mac-software/9550-no-floppy-driv e-support-os-x.html], [the hard drive, optical drives|http://www.apple.com/macbookair>, and [the mouse|http://www.apple.com/ipad>.

It is interesting to see the direction this thread has taken, when my only concern was that Open Office was unable to 'find' the instance of JRE after the update! My problem has been temporarily resolved, in that the offshoot of Open Office, NeoOffice, has been adapted to work in 'the Mac way' and so finds the elusive item straight away! I'm sure that Open Office will bring its own system into line in due course.

As Apple has pointed out, if application providers wish Java to be a part of that application, they (the providers) will have to ensure that they (the applications) comply with the hooks that are made available. Apple has made very clear that the new Java Preferences application has been set up to ensure that Java may continue to run on OSX (10.n), but that (post 10.6.n) it will - in all likelihood - not be Apple providing the Java engine for the OS. The fact that Apple will not accept any non-native pre-requisite for an app from the Mac-App Store just means that the end-user will be pretty certain that an app from that source will run out-of-the-box, but doesn't stop the same end-user from buying something from another source without that guarantee of immediate compatibility. So be it; the Mac user community has always gained by the integrity that is maintained by ensuring standards!

While I have no interest in dabbling in Java, I do go 'under the hood' with software that will compile on Unix and have successfully set up a Mac Mini with client Leopard to act as my server and gateway - while being able to keep to the normal OSX GUI on all other machines; try doing that on a Windows machine as an amateur!!

Jan C wrote:
It is interesting to see the direction this thread has taken, when my only concern was that Open Office was unable to 'find' the instance of JRE after the update!

It was never your thread to begin with 🙂

We are being true to the question asked by the original poster. It is always best to start your own threads. I can guarantee you would have gotten more appropriate responses that way.

{quote:title=etresoft wrote:}
The question is, does Apple's deprecation of their Apple-built JVM version immediately render Mac OS X dead to all Java developers? I say it doesn't because there is already a 3rd party JVM you can use on MacOS X. All Apple has said is that there might not be an Apple-built JVM in 10.7 next year.{quote}

I'm sorry, the situation with the current release is not at all to my point. I'm trying to plan for the software I'm going to release next year, and for the workstation I'm going to buy, which had better serve me for the next three or four years.

I've spent all morning checking out the OpenJDK at your suggestion, and it simply is not a viable option for me. The Java Research License for Soy Latte precludes that all by itself. I'm left with the hope that somebody will create at another, more usable JVM for OS X over the next year. Currently my users on Linux and Cygwin boxes can install a JVM by issuing a single command, or checking one checkbox in a dialog box. My users on Macs don't have to do anything. Total win for the Mac. Next year my Linux and Cygwin users will still be able run one command or click one check box, but what are my Mac users going to have to do? I don't know, and this is a problem for me.

I'm not a Java developer, but I use tools written in Java, so I need end-user level support for Java. I develop on a Mac, but I'm not a Mac developer, because all my software has to run on multiple platforms. My interest in Apple is how hard it is going to be to support my software on the Mac, and whether the Mac will continue to be the best choice for my personal workstation. Apple used to be interested in selling Macs as general purpose development machines. Maybe they aren't any more, that's their business. I'm just trying to find out what their plan is for my market segment, and bring to their attention that the uncertainty about the availability of a JVM causes problems for some of their current customers. I'm not accusing them of being war criminals. I'm just want to know if they still want my business.

So etresoft, as an experienced developer, what is your advice? Given that I am definitely going to continue doing multi-platform development using GCC and Java, do I lay out the money for a new Mac Pro workstation for myself, and do I plan on supporting my software on the Mac in 2011?

I'm also curious if anyone knows, is it possible that between now and next year Oracle will take over development of the Java platform for Mac OS like they do for Windows? I'm hoping they will, in fact that might be even better especially if that means the updates for Java are released at the same time for both Mac OS and Windows.

CharlesEGrant wrote:
I'm sorry, the situation with the current release is not at all to my point. I'm trying to plan for the software I'm going to release next year, and for the workstation I'm going to buy, which had better serve me for the next three or four years.

Up until some point in the summer of 2011 (or perhaps later), you will be able to buy a machine with Snow Leopard and Java 6 preinstalled. You will be able to run that machine for three years with the AppleCare warranty. You have almost 4 years before you have to do anything regarding finding another Java.

I've spent all morning checking out the OpenJDK at your suggestion, and it simply is not a viable option for me. The Java Research License for Soy Latte precludes that all by itself.

I think Soy Latte is old news now. According to the website: "Soylatte is now officially a part of the OpenJDK BSD-Port project" and "OpenJDK releases are provided under the GPLv2 and GPLv2+CP licenses, and no authentication is required".

I'm left with the hope that somebody will create at another, more usable JVM for OS X over the next year.

Like this one? http://vmkit.llvm.org/index.html

I'm not a Java developer, but I use tools written in Java, so I need end-user level support for Java. I develop on a Mac, but I'm not a Mac developer, because all my software has to run on multiple platforms.

I'm a Perl developer on Linux - but I do it all from my Mac.

My interest in Apple is how hard it is going to be to support my software on the Mac, and whether the Mac will continue to be the best choice for my personal workstation. Apple used to be interested in selling Macs as general purpose development machines.

They still are. They are just narrowing their scope of responsibility. You can build GCC 4.4 on a Mac. You can develop .NET and C# on a Mac. You can write FORTRAN on a Mac. You can do that without any support form Apple. If Java needs such a high level of active support from Apple to be viable, then maybe it isn't really a cross-platform language.

So etresoft, as an experienced developer, what is your advice? Given that I am definitely going to continue doing multi-platform development using GCC and Java, do I lay out the money for a new Mac Pro workstation for myself, and do I plan on supporting my software on the Mac in 2011?

Most of 2011 will be the same as 2010. Then Apple will continue to support 10.7 Lion in the same manner that they continue to support 10.5 Leopard. Nothing whatsoever has changed or will change in that timeframe. What Apple has done is told you that they consider Java to be a legacy technology. That doesn't mean that Java will stop dead in its tracks on June 21st, 2011. It does mean that new Apple hardware purchased after 10.7 Lion is released might not be able to run Apple's current JVM. You will still be able to run older hardware with 10.6 and Apple's Java for as long as the hardware runs. There would continue to be other options to run 10.6 on newer hardware with VM software, for example. You may be able to install the current Apple JVM on 10.7 - no way to tell now.

At some point, you are going to have to make a decision. The current groupthink is that Apple is once again pulling one of their "tricks" with Java. I don't think that is the case. I don't think you fully understand the difference between Sun Microsystems and Oracle. You are complaining about Java on the Mac but you really need to be worried about Java, period. I'm pretty sure Apple's actions vis-à-vis Java are reactive, not proactive. At my work, we were all set to move some big servers to Solaris just so we could get decent QFS support that Linux can't provide. Now that Oracle has taken over, that effort is dead. I don't know the details, but that was a significant event. We will continue to use Oracle for storage because no one else can manage that many PBs. Oracle DB people will always love Oracle. But people are discovering very quickly that Oracle is not Sun. You are worried about Apple's bottom-line corporate callousness? Apple is the fairy godmother compared to Oracle.