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Level 1

25 points

Sony HDR-TD10 and MVC Formatting

Is anyone here familiar with the new Sony MVC / 3D format? I am unable to find anything specific in the discussions or via an Internet search. It is my understanding that the new Sony HDR-TD10 records in this format, and the software
(PMB / 3D) is not supported in Mac OS X. I am aware of the formats as they apply to 2D, but not 3D, to avoid any confusion.

Does anyone know if the 3D footage can even be downloaded and stored (not edited) via Final Cut Pro for possible future editing when a conversion or editing solution becomes available?

Thanks in advance.

Max

G5, Mac OS X (10.5.5)

Posted on Mar 8, 2011 7:50 PM

63 replies

Louis XIV Author

Level 1

25 points

Dec 27, 2011 7:28 PM in response to Louis XIV

Thanks for the post.

The only problem is, accodeing to their site, that the software will cost $2,999.00.

For that, I could buy an Alienware 3D laptop loaded to the gills with options.

I should note that just because you have this software for Mac, there are a LOT of hardware and software requirements to truly edit Sony TD10 footage w/o major hassles and loss of features. I figure just getting a PC laptop that supports 3D is fine.

Dec 27, 2011 7:55 PM in response to Louis XIV

I'm not sure where you got that pricing info; their Neo program, which has a lot of 3D support, is $299; Neo 3D is $999. Here is their current feature breakdown -

Comparing 3D Features in Neo3D and Neo

Neo: Optimized for single-body, dual-lens 3D cameras such as Panasonic’s AG-3DA1Neo3d: Optimized for dual-camera stereo rigs. Also includes additional professional features as shown in the table.

Features neo & neo3D

Create Mastering quality CineForm 3D files from virtually any source format  
Compatible with Adobe CS5, Apple FCS3, Avid MC v5  
Stereo Convergence Adjustment: Horizontal, Vertical, Skew (Rotation)  
Auto-zoom (border crop) for convergence adjustments  
Disparity zoom to correct for mismatched lens focal lengths  
3D Display modes through OpenGL:
- Anaglyph: Red-Cyan, Amber-Blue, Green-Magenta  - HD Frame: side-by-side, over-under,line-interleave  - Active 3D (Nvidia 3D)  
Assist tools for convergence and color adjustments:
- Grid lines overlay  - Difference mode: (Left – Right)  - Onion skin  - Split screen for stereo color matching  
Stereo Color Controls:
- Keyframeable color adjustment on stereo files  - 64x64x64 color LUTs with 34 predefined  
3D Overlay Engine with independent parallax control
- User-generated text or titles  - Graphics (PNG) overlay  - Tools: histogram, scopes, waveforms  - Burn-in metadata overlay: timecode, filename, etc  
Framing Controls:
- Crop ratios: 4:3, 3:2, 16:9, 1.85:1, 2.39:1  - Stereo zoom  - Pan and Scan (x, y adjust)  
Support for Tangent Wave control surface for color and 3D adjustments  (convenient alternative to software sliders in First Light)

Neo 3D only:

Keyframeable convergence (convergence dissolves) 
Floating Windows to correct for edge violations 
Ghost Busting to reduce high-contrast ghosting on some passive displays 
Keystoning correction (correct for camera toe-in/out) 
Individual-eye color adjustment (for color mismatch between eyes) 
Depth “tilt” to adjust relative depth of primary objects in a 3D scene 
Image warping to correct lens distortion (coming later) 
Dual-link stereo output to drive RealD, Dolby, and XpanD projectors 

As I said, I honestly don't know where you got that price. It looks to me like $299 will go a long way towards letting one work productively with TD10 files.

Louis XIV Author

Level 1

25 points

Dec 27, 2011 9:20 PM in response to Louis XIV

I am assuming the prices listed on the NEO site I visited were incorrect or outdated.

I do not see any information on MVC files, which are much different than the majority of 3D files.

Regardless, please keep us updated. I will keep my fingers crossed... but unitl I see specific information that MVC files can be edited 100% w/o the losses and full editing limitations as with other Mac (TD-10) software attempts or conversions, I'll be a little cautious.

Louis XIV Author

Level 1

25 points

Jan 14, 2012 4:37 PM in response to Louis XIV

The NEO3D folks are worthless when it comes to answering questions.

I've sent multiple requests inquiring about the hardware requirements for running (and successfully) editing with their software. I've heard nothing back, which means, A: poor customer service and likley poor technical assistance, and B: I doubt they even know what it takes to successfully edit the MVC format on a mac. I "mean" full editing, not what they think is good.

Jan 14, 2012 4:56 PM in response to Louis XIV

Well, I've got to amend my original optimistic post. I downloaded the Mac demo, and the only thing I could find that would recognize the MVC format did indeed convert it, but for only one of the two stereo images - as if one had been shooting in 2D mode.

I'd love to be shown I'm mistaken, but it looks to me like the TD-10 is only supported for 2D at this point.

Jan 20, 2012 1:24 PM in response to therandyzone

therandyzone, you are not mistaken. The Mac version of the new software cannot transcode mvc files into 3d cineform. The PC software, however, does. I'm running a virtual windows machine in order to use the pc software, which is not ideal, but from there i can work with the quicktimes in FCP which is my ultimate goal. I'm being told by gopro that mac support for mvc is in the works, but is being held up by vender approvals. So who knows when it will actually be available.

fkamaral

Level 1

0 points

Feb 28, 2012 1:12 PM in response to Louis XIV

Does anyone have any news about how to work with these files in 3D on Mac without the need of a windows VM or machine?

Feb 28, 2012 1:24 PM in response to fkamaral

I bypassed the issue altogether... By getting a Blackmagic Design Decklink HD 3D Extreme card, and capturing the dual stream via HDMI. Works like a charm.

I'm also using an 8-drive RAID array, so your mileage may vary. It does the trick, though... I can then edit the stacked pair in FCP while viewing just one channel, and export each eye one at a time.

I use BMD's Media Express software to view the resulting stereo pair on a Samsung 3D LCD. It's not quite as convenient as having real 3D support in the editor, but it gets the job done. Good luck!

Mar 16, 2012 11:30 AM in response to therandyzone

hey therandyzone, is there any compression off the TD10 as it comes over hdmi 1.4? ie are you happy with the quality of transcoded files? and what format do you transcode to? left and right apple pro res 422 HQ or other?

Thanks!

Louis XIV Author

Level 1

25 points

Mar 16, 2012 4:08 PM in response to Louis XIV

Interesting Mac / HDR-TD10 / MTS converter I just found during a search.

http://www.mts-converter-mac.com/import-sony-handycam-hdr-td10-mts-files-to-imov ie-fce-fcp-for-mac.html

I am out of town and don't have access to my files, but I'm really wondering if this software actually works, and what quality the converted clips are rendered into.

If anyone wants to give it a try, please post back your results.

The software is free but has a water mark on the saved clip unless it's purchsed. It costs $29.95 but will be well worth it if it does indeed work.

Mar 17, 2012 7:18 AM in response to marten berkman

Hi, Marten -

I capture the dual video stream using Apple Pro Res 4444, as I like to edit and add effects using this codec, regardless of the fact that the original material doesn't have quite this range.

Of course, the material was compressed using Sony's AVCHD codec when it was originally written to the camera's hard drive; there's no way to get around that. Still, the resulting quality is actually quite high and generally free of visual artifacts.

As an example, here's a frame taken from just one of the two video streams, using my HDMI capture method. It was originally captured using Pro Res 4444, but I've provided it as a .tif, to avoid adding additional compression. It's about 6MB, and if your browser won't handle .tifs, you'll need to download it to your desktop and view it with an image editing program. Safari handles it, no problem.

(Actually, to see it at actual size, you should definitely download it and view it outside a browser, as the browser will almost certainly resize it.)

http://memepuffs.com/firetruck.tif

It was an investment, but I absolutely love this Blackmagic Design 3D Extreme HD card; it works flawlessly.

Randy Walters

Mar 17, 2012 10:57 PM in response to therandyzone

Thank you Randy! That is great to hear, and the sample you provided is remarkable...especially from a consumer level camera with AVCHD compression. I have admired the picture in realtime playback through hdmi to a 3d tv, and have been disappointed by the compromise in image quality with roundabout transcoding processes. I will look into the specs for using this card. I do not have a RAID system, but the eSATA connection with an external G-Tech RAID drive might manage this real time data transfer. Do you have an idea of the data transfer rate through hdmi when playing 3d off your TD10? Never any issues with buffering?

Thanks again for your experiences and sample, great to see a successful solution for what I consider a great camera.

Mar 18, 2012 9:56 AM in response to marten berkman

You're welcome, Marten -

I don't think the data transfer rate through HDMI is the issue... that data is the highly compressed and difference-encoded AVCHD stream from the camera.

What matters is the data rate that needs to be written to disk, after the stream has been demuxed and transcoded into whatever codec you plan to use.

I did the math on a few of my TD10 files, all of which are 1080i 59.94.

Files encoded as ProRes 422HQ single-stream are about 27MB/s, which means 54MB/s for stereo.

To my surprise, ProRes 4444 files are roughly the same.

For comparison, uncompressed files are 127MB/s, or 254MB/s for stereo. My 8-drive RAID tops out at 414.9MB/s write, 256.7MB/s read. Remember, you'll need to be able to cover the bandwidth for read as well, for smooth playback. (None of these figures should be taken as gospel; they're just the results I'm getting on my system.)

I double-checked, and that fire engine image I linked to was actually ProRes 422HQ, not 4444.

You can test your system's capabilities using this handy free app...

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/blackmagic-disk-speed-test/id425264550?mt=12

Note that the results it gives for success in different formats are for *uncompressed* files... if you're using ProRes, you'll actually be able to capture in many formats this test marks as failing. You'll need to compare the actual numbers you get from the test with the numbers I've shared for comparison.

I hope that helps!

Randy

Mar 18, 2012 9:55 AM in response to Louis XIV

Hello,

well is it possible to connect the Camera to a Mac and get the files from the Camera or is it still impossible ?

Do i need a special Driver to mount the Camera File Sytem ?

Thank you all

P.S. did someone Test the mts Coverter mention above ? http://www.mts-converter-mac.com/import-sony-handycam-hdr-td10-mts-files-to-imov ie-fce-fcp-for-mac.html

Mar 18, 2012 10:04 AM in response to Hollekamp

Hollekamp, as far as I know, you can't connect the camera directly to a Mac to access the file system.

You can, however, get yourself a little external USB hard drive, connect it to the camera, format it (as FAT, I believe) and transfer the files from the camera. You can then connect the drive to your Mac, see the files, and play them back using VLC or some other player.

Unfortunately, you will only be seeing one-half of the stereo stream. How to get both? That's what everyone's pulling their hair out about! 🙂

Good luck, Randy

Sony HDR-TD10 and MVC Formatting