new macbook pro 2011 weak and dropping wireless connection

jef_512 wrote:

this issue has been happening way back 2008:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/the-macbooks-mysterious-wifi-dropout-problem-is- still-unsolved/1441

i'm having the same issues now and still unresolved (2-month old MBP).

The above linked article clearly indicates that obviosly most of the wireless issues nesting in the network infrastructure.

Or would one seriously expect, that Apple, Broadcom and Atheros leave a major technical issue on there hard- or software unsolved for over three years?

Lupunus

lupunus wrote:

jef_512 wrote:

this issue has been happening way back 2008:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/the-macbooks-mysterious-wifi-dropout-problem-is- still-unsolved/1441

i'm having the same issues now and still unresolved (2-month old MBP).

The above linked article clearly indicates that obviosly most of the wireless issues nesting in the network infrastructure.

Or would one seriously expect, that Apple, Broadcom and Atheros leave a major technical issue on there hard- or software unsolved for over three years?

Lupunus

Lupunus,

Thanks for your input, but I have to say I think you are wrong to say this is a network infrastructure issue. I can say with a high level of confidence this is a MBP issue and not "my network". I have tested connectivity on 4 different wireless networks, including the network at my local Apple Store, and been able to reproduce the issue each and every time. I did this in front of a Genuis Bar employee and showed the ping time increases and drops when doing any medium to large data traffic. I have three MBP and only the new 2011 is having this issue, the other two do not produce the same issue when doing a side by side test.

-chrisl

PJRives wrote:

People come to this Board expecting OFFICIAL FROM APPLE EMPLOYEE TECH SUPPORT, not friendly users that happen to know a few things.

On the starting page of the community is in written in big letters in a prominent placement:

Share tips and solutions with fellow Apple product users from all around the world.

And If the users read the offered tutorials for the community, especially the chapter about the community etiquette they will see the first sentence there:

Apple Support Communities was created to enable Apple community members to help each other get the most out of their Apple products and services.

Reading broadens the mind.

Just dropping in to say I'm having a similar issue that others have described here. My Macbook Pro can pick up our wireless router if it's in the same room as it, but if we walk into the living room, it goes from full bars, to unable to load a page..

All other sorts of devices work with the router -- and our old laptop had no issues staying connected. After seeing all of this -- I'm going to turn to AppleCare and probably the Genius Bar.

Sielk wrote:

Thanks for your input, but I have to say I think you are wrong to say this is a network infrastructure issue.

I've said that: "most" of the wireless issues nesting in the network infrastructure. Never said or meen ALL, as there are for sure are other reasons in some cases.

Sielk wrote:

I have tested connectivity on 4 different wireless networks, including the network at my local Apple Store, and been able to reproduce the issue each and every time. I did this in front of a Genuis Bar employee and showed the ping time increases and drops when doing any medium to large data traffic.

That is a clear proof to come to the ground of your issue. Good job.

And I'm with you, that this is not the best outcome for you.

But, as well as I would never ever state that in any case the problem is in the network, you can never state in a serious matter that, even if the symptoms are similar, all the other people here have the same reason for the problem as you.

Even if a case looks similar at first glance, you should be aware, that every configuration and every computer or network problem is unique.

On computer problems, as they are stringent logical an all based on 10, only the old fashioned Holmes, or in more Hollywood attempt, the Spock method leads to crucial proof.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

In exact this case!

To generalize a similar observation leads in any case to wrong conclusions and suppositions.

Thought we'd eliminate the whole discussion about my two networks, since IMO it is irrelevant, and get back to basics. So...I shut down the .11(g) network. Only running the (n) network on the WAP. I am sitting about 10 ft. away, no obstructions, line 'o'sight, doesn't get better than that. Here's my hardware profile:

Software Versions:

Menu Extra: 6.2.2 (622.2)

configd plug-in: 6.2.5 (625.6)

System Profiler: 6.0.1 (601.1)

Network Preference: 6.2.2 (622.2)

AirPort Utility: 5.5.3 (553.20)

IO80211 Family: 3.2 (320.1)

Interfaces:

en1:

Card Type: AirPort Extreme (0x14E4, 0x87)

Firmware Version: Broadcom BCM43xx 1.0 (5.10.131.42.4)

Locale: FCC

Country Code: US

Supported PHY Modes: 802.11 a/b/g/n

Supported Channels: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 36, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60, 64, 149, 153, 157, 161, 165

Status: Connected

Current Network Information:

Amped_AP:

PHY Mode: 802.11n

BSSID: f8:78:8c:2:8:7a

Channel: 6

Country Code: US

Network Type: Infrastructure

Security: WPA Personal

Signal / Noise: -59 dBm / -90 dBm

Transmit Rate: 78

MCS Index: 12

This is about what I would expect to see.

Couple things worth mentioning. The RSSI indicator in the pull down apparently IS a power reading in dBm, as I thought, and contrary to your earlier post. Some manufacturers may use 0 to -100 as some sort of relative power indication, but it it clear from the above that Apple is mearuring dBm and displaying it here and in the pull-down status.

So I step outside. Large door, wide open. WAP is still line of sight, maybe 15 feet away and my connection drops - GONE. Get following from profile output:

Software Versions:

Menu Extra: 6.2.2 (622.2)

configd plug-in: 6.2.5 (625.6)

System Profiler: 6.0.1 (601.1)

Network Preference: 6.2.2 (622.2)

AirPort Utility: 5.5.3 (553.20)

IO80211 Family: 3.2 (320.1)

Interfaces:

en1:

Card Type: AirPort Extreme (0x14E4, 0x87)

Firmware Version: Broadcom BCM43xx 1.0 (5.10.131.42.4)

Locale: FCC

Country Code: US

Supported PHY Modes: 802.11 a/b/g/n

Supported Channels: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 36, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60, 64, 149, 153, 157, 161, 165

Status: Not Associated

Local Wireless Networks:

Amped_AP:

PHY Mode: 802.11n

BSSID: f8:78:8c:2:8:7a

Channel: 6,-1

Network Type: Infrastructure

Security: WPA Personal

Signal / Noise: -69 dBm / -87 dBm

Surfer:

PHY Mode: 802.11n

BSSID: 0:24:36:ab:d1:d4

Channel: 149,1

Country Code: US

Network Type: Infrastructure

Security: None

Signal / Noise: -84 dBm / -91 dBm

Finally, I fired up my Dell laptop and sat in exactly the same positon as the above readings. I got a huge signal, great connection. Just as you would expect, and despite all the other networks in the vicinity.

When I get any appreciable distance from the WAP the signal drops off very quickly and there is less than 10 dB margin in the signal to noise. IMO, 10 dB signal to noise margin is on the edge of acceptable.

In fact, this behavior acts as if we're getting coupling without antennas. i.e. very close to a high power emitter, there's plenty of coupling to go around, thus antennas would hardly be necessary. But as you get a few feet away, the signal drops off rapidly.

Other networks, much further away, have similar readings. Hence, the MBP is unable to discrimminate a good network connection and get it lashed up. At least, that's what this is telling me.

It sure would be interesting to get a similar MBP sitting side by side (one that works) and try comparable dumps and see what the signal and noise measurements looked like.

Now, it might be easy to jump to the conclusion that there's something wrong with the wires or the WiFi card. So happens I have my older (Airport, not Extreme) card handy, which I intend to put back in and see if I get similar results. It could also be the antenna connectors I suppose, which I will check (there's 2, so in a diversity arrangement, so to think we're dealing with a bad connector or wire would mean we must assume BOTH antennas would have to be bad, which is certainly possible but low probability?

There is yet another possibility - software has mucked up the programming of the receiver so badly that it is not receiving properly. I'll report back what I find with the older card installed. I am still betting on software issues.

Finally, I am tempted to go get an external hard drive, install a clean OS back to Leopard, and try that. I'm taking bets on whether that works or not.

PJRives wrote:

Let me clarify then

People come to this Board expecting OFFICIAL FROM APPLE EMPLOYEE TECH SUPPORT, not friendly users that happen to know a few things.

"OFFICIAL FROM APPLE EMPLOYEE TECH SUPPORT"

Will not be found on a user forum.

OK, swapped in the old (g) WiFi card in my MBP. Fired up the laptop. Same problems, symptoms. BTW, the software recognized and loaded the proper firmware and driver level code, no confusion that I could see from the system profile dump. Then I put back in the (n) card, same problems. SO unless both cards are flaky exactly the same way, hence I believe it's not the card(s). So it's either the antennas and/or cables or it is the software.

My next stop is to do a clean install on an external hard drive, maybe go all the way back to Leopard from the install disk, and try that. Then I'll bump to early Snow Leopard and see what changes (or not). Or....maybe I'll just go find a USB dongle and call it a day. This is getting very very tiring.

mfwells wrote:

So...I shut down the .11(g) network. Only running the (n) network on the WAP. I am sitting about 10 ft. away, no obstructions, line 'o'sight, doesn't get better than that.:

Amped_AP:

PHY Mode: 802.11n

BSSID: f8:78:8c:2:8:7a

Channel: 6

Country Code: US

Network Type: Infrastructure

Security: WPA Personal

Signal / Noise: -59 dBm / -90 dBm

Transmit Rate: 78

MCS Index: 12

OK, that's give some useful info.

The MCS Index of 12 corresponds with the used 20MHz channel 6 on a 2.4GHz 802.11n network.

Theoretical values from the table in the thick book:

MCS=12 means -> Spatial streams=2 Modulation Type=16-QAM Coding Rate=3/4 Data Rate=78.00 Mbit/s

The SNR of 31 is ok and indicates a pretty good signal. (on a scale from 1-5 where 5 is lightning fast, this is 3.5)

The readings from my wireless to compare:

Distance appr. 10-12 ft. no free line of sight (1 block brick wall and half open pinewood/glass door)

Lupunus 5 GHz:

PHY Mode: 802.11n

BSSID: xx:xx:xx:x:38:1e

Channel: 100,1

Country Code: DE

Network Type: Infrastructure

Security: WPA2 Personal

Signal / Noise: -52 dBm / -90 dBm

Transmit Rate: 450

MCS Index: 23

Table from the thick book: MCS=23 means -> Spatial Streams=3 Modulation Type=64-QAM Coding Rate=5/6 Data Rate=450.00 Mbit/s

The RSSI indicator in the pull down apparently IS a power reading in dBm, as I thought, and contrary to your earlier post.

OK, I repeat for you from the IEEE 802.11

"In an IEEE 802.11 system RSSI is the relative received signal strength in a wireless environment, in arbitrary units. RSSI measurements are unitless and in the range 0 to 255, expressible as a one-byte unsigned integer."

If you wont belief that, buy a book or call the IEEE802 Org.

So I step outside. Large door, wide open. WAP is still line of sight, maybe 15 feet away and my connection drops - GONE.Amped_AP:

PHY Mode: 802.11n

BSSID: f8:78:8c:2:8:7a

Channel: 6,-1

Network Type: Infrastructure

Security: WPA Personal

Signal / Noise: -69 dBm / -87 dBm

Surfer:

PHY Mode: 802.11n

BSSID: 0:24:36:ab:d1:d4

Channel: 149,1

Country Code: US

Network Type: Infrastructure

Security: None

Signal / Noise: -84 dBm / -91 dBm

On this, the Surfer (if MIMO capable on 5GHz 802.11n) should provide you a 300 Mbit/s rate, cause the Mac have 2 antennas = 150Mbit/s each. if the Surfer is (unlikely) not MIMO capable on 5GHz you should get at least 150Mbit/s

But, in the outside values you provided the SNR is week. 18dBm for the Amp and only 7dBm for the Surfer.

18 indicates a low signal, 7 is practically NO signal.

Remember my own reading with a SNR of 38 on 5GHz

As the read values are delivered directly from the Chipset, the SL have no influence on the measurement.

The good and the bad news

As the SNR 31 on the inhouse readings (2.4GHz, Ch 6 802.11n) is ok. Therefore you should expect a better data rate as the 78Mbit/s

The outside reading of the SNR 18 from 2.4GHz Ch 6 - 802.11n is week

The outside reading of the SNR 7 from 5GHz Ch 149 - 802.11n is lousy

If we assume normal conditions and the station is in the line of sight, a reliable signal shoud reach at least 150-200 ft

Possible causes on 2.4GHz:

Interferences from other 2.4GHz radio equipment or neighbour wireless

Antenna problems on the receiver

On the 5GHz you can assume that there are practically no interferences but reflections (mirroring) could cause signal decrease.

Possible causes on 5GHz:

Antenna problems on the receiver

EOF

lupunus wrote:

Possible causes on 2.4GHz:

Interferences from other 2.4GHz radio equipment or neighbour wireless

Antenna problems on the receiver

On the 5GHz you can assume that there are practically no interferences but reflections (mirroring) could cause signal decrease.

Possible causes on 5GHz:

Antenna problems on the receiver

EOF

Add wireless home phones, alarms and some home intercom/surveillance systems to the 5G list.

Csound1 wrote:

Add wireless home phones, alarms and some home intercom/surveillance systems to the 5G list.

The list for 2.4GHz is nearly endless...

Cordless Phones, Baby-Phone, cordless headphones, cordless mouse/keyboard, Bluetooth, cordless speakers, tv-streaming, door bells............

On 5G it is not so heavy as there are more channels and less other equipment especially in most surroundings not so much wifi's.

The constant problems in this case leads more to a permanent running system with a high level output if interferences are the clue.

But as he had swapped the chipset more than once, I tend more in the direction of the Mac's antennas

Checked ifixit this afternoon. On that model, swapping the wifi chip is not just an easypeasy in/out work.

lupunus wrote:

Csound1 wrote:

Add wireless home phones, alarms and some home intercom/surveillance systems to the 5G list.

The list for 2.4GHz is nearly endless...

Cordless Phones, Baby-Phone, cordless headphones, cordless mouse/keyboard, Bluetooth, cordless speakers, tv-streaming, door bells............

On 5G it is not so heavy as there are more channels and less other equipment especially in most surroundings not so much wifi's.

5G is better in some respects but it has less range than 2.4g, you are correct in that there are not so many 802n networks around but there are only 21 5G channels and they all overlap on the guide band, there are also 2 very powerful interlopers in the 5G band, commercial weather radar and our old friends, the military.

Treatment (as always) is fix the location of the transmitter first.

Csound1 wrote:

5G is better in some respects but it has less range than 2.4g,

Normally no problem in average flats or houses. OK, at Bill G's 2500 m2 villa you may need a few bases more.

Csound1 wrote:

there are also 2 very powerful interlopers in the 5G band, commercial weather radar and our old friends, the military.

Treatment (as always) is fix the location of the transmitter first.

On that I'm a lucky guy. 30 miles to next airport, 80 miles to next military base, the only 80211n 5G that I could detect around.

Treatment ... first aid is always to move the transmitter and look that humans are not between it and the receiver. Water is a real mess for the radio beam.

RTW adding a client or two can also help to reduce interferences.

I see it's getting chippy in here, but it's understandable. For those of you having troubles, your patience should have run out long ago. Anyway, I thought I'd add my profiler information to the discussion. Maybe it'll be helpful somehow.

----------------------------------------

Software Versions:

CoreWLAN: 2.0 (200.46)

CoreWLANKit: 1.0 (100.43)

Menu Extra: 7.0 (700.42)

configd plug-in: 7.0 (700.57)

System Profiler: 7.0 (700.3)

IO80211 Family: 4.0 (400.40)

WiFi Diagnostics: 1.0 (100.26)

AirPort Utility: 5.5.3 (553.20)

Interfaces:

en1:

Card Type: AirPort Extreme (0x14E4, 0xD6)

Firmware Version: Broadcom BCM43xx 1.0 (5.100.98.75.10)

MAC Address: e0:xx:47:xx:xx:xx

Locale: FCC

Country Code: TW

Supported PHY Modes: 802.11 a/b/g/n

Supported Channels: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 56, 60, 64, 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120, 124, 128, 132, 136, 140, 149, 153, 157, 161, 165

Wake On Wireless: Supported

AirDrop: Supported

Status: Connected

Current Network Information:

Roses:

PHY Mode: 802.11n

BSSID: c0:3f:0e:xx:xx:x0

Channel: 153,-1

Country Code: TW

Network Type: Infrastructure

Security: WPA2 Personal

Signal / Noise: -58 dBm / -87 dBm

Transmit Rate: 270

MCS Index: 15

And Network Utility says:

Sent Packets: 52,046,999 (and counting)

Recv Packets: 50,202,527 (and counting)

Recv Errors: 0

Collisions: 0

Link Speed: 300 Mbit/s

---------------------------------

No, I'm not having problems and never have with this router or laptop...and not in airports or anywhere else that I am on a regular basis that are not home. And yes, my room is full of BT devices, 2.4GHz phones, etc. It doesn't matter if I'm connected to the N band or G band. I don't have drops or problems. I regularly transfer 30GB files wirelessly and have never had a problem. As I've said before, it's unfortunate that your computers are effected, but my experience seems to suggest to me that it's not a normal software problem. If it was, my computer would be dropping signals and packets too...but it's not and never has no matter how much load I put it under.

This reality is probably part of the reason why Apple has been so slow to address it. If everyone's computers were having trouble holding a network connection, that'd be different...but it's just not the case. My Mac and my brother's 2009 15" MBP (both running Lion) operate flawlessly as expected.

My computer: 2011 17" MBP, bought March 2011. Running Lion.

Router: Netgear WNDR3700 dual-band router.

ISP: Comcast.

<3 my 2011 MBP. I hope you guys get your issues sorted. Good luck, guys. I still strongly recommend you all push for replacement machines rather than fixes or...just living with broken computers.

I am running OS 10.6.8 with all the latest OS updates installed. With you running on Lion, there's some obvious and understandable differences between my system profile and yours. Both your machine and mine have the same Broadcom WiFi chipset. From my system profiler output:

Firmware Version: Broadcom BCM43xx 1.0 (5.10.131.42.4)

However, one difference that stands out is the firmware version number (I'm guessing that's what it is). I am a bunch of releases behind you - but then again, some of that might be explained by interface tweaks that occured when Apple developed Lion.

Presumably this is something the OS dynamically loads into (or for?) the chip's code (on startup?) after sensing the card and locating the appropriate firmware to load, or flashes into the chip - whatever.

Anyway, clearly a much later version of the firmware in your profile. That many changes to firmware for a card that has been around this long? I'd say they are still doing a lot of tweaking, for sure. Maybe your version gets everything right. Mine sure doesn't seem to.