I bailed on Lion

😢

You are SOOOOO wrong.

It used to be that if you updated your OSX install withna Firewire HDD attached, it would FUBAR the drive and the install.

You totally misunderstand the entire process by which Apple releases OS's and what you call updates. I have to use WIN 7 for AutoCAD Inventor, and WIN 7 patches about 20 different hardcore security flaws a week. Everything is always broken, and you need to or three 3rd party apps to clean up the mess of un-deleted caches, ghost files, and left-overs any time you "upgrade," or patch. Patches often break programs, and the update system is incapable of understanding that you have a newer version of the driver it keeps trying to install for you. There is no "Complete Update," so when you install a store bought WIN 7 OS, you have to go through 50 sessions of updates, downloads, re-boots, and check for new software. It is a total mess.

Ben - You are complaining about LION coming installed on new Mac's, but at the same time saying that none of your Mac's came with LION installed. Clearly you cannot both have an older Mac without LION, and state that you cannot go back. Take out the "Everything Else" packet that came with your computer(s) and install or fix from them.... Go back to 10.6.8... You can do a fresh install, the Apple distributed 10.6.8 Complete Update, re-integrate your user folder and you are done.

If you are complaingin about LION, why are you using it? Are you being a martyr for the 3 people with the odd-ball hardware failures in the iMac line? Do you even own a Mac? I actually wasted my time reading several of your linked posts, and all of them were people expecting a new computer from a $29 OS upgrade - and again - Meeting the Minimum Requirements means you will get the Minimum Performance. And AGAIN - enclosed computers do not have an endless lifespan like a Mac Pro Tower, and Hard Drives (Regardless of the fact that Apple uses the Best Toshiba's) will all fail between 3 - 5 years.

Why are you so upset that something you don't want, something you claim to refuse to use, something that is being happily used by millions. (and yes, happy people are not the ones to post to message boards about how happy they are - they just happily use their machines.)

So you seem to be on a whining trip about a ridiculously small sample of people, 75% of which are from PC Magazine, complaining about issues, most of which are simply "I didn't know how to do this, didn't read the enclosed manual, called it a bug, screamed and yelled on the message boards, and then figured a special work-around - the simple and actual method most naturally use - and am going to complain until Apple fixes this bug!" It's not a bug 99% of the time. I read one of your linked anger-posts, and the user was on a 2008 MacBook, using wireless G, and complaining about the fact that after upgrading to LION, he couldn't connect to the network at his girlfriends even though his iPad 2 and iPhone could..... Yeah - Because the router was not in dual mode, and you must press APPLY for setting to stick.

This message board and apple support has been winning awards for years - not because lovers post on it, but because people are helpful, and there is generally a lack of trolls. It is sad to watch this degrade into DELL or PC Mag dot com.

Don't use LION if you don't like it. Use the discs that came with all of your old Macs to downgrade to 10.6.8. Ber happy, and do something other than hate on something you don't want to use. I'll apologize on Apple Marketings behalf -

Dear Ben, we are sorry you have read some reports by anonymous users that their older macs with minimum system requirments are running at minimum performance with the graphics intensive interface of Lion, which is designed to use more graphics ram than the 128 MB their eBay purchased 2007 Mac Mini supports. There were also a very limited number of recent iMacs sold with a specific bad part. We have since taken care of those customers, although if someone refused to register their product, we may have missed some buyers. Please use your computers BUG Reporting Application to send logs to apple support and development. We read them all, and in the case of an actual OS Kernal Panic or Bug, we respond to the owner post haste. We would be happy to explain to you how you can go back to 10.6.8 if you have upgraded to LION. You said that you have a Spring 2011 MacBook Pro, and as that is still under warranty, you can call support for help, and they will guide you through the process of using your original restore discs to return to Snow Leopard. We are happy to know you find Snow Leopard to be the Best Operating System EVER MADE. That is quite a compliment.

Philly_Phan wrote:

softwater wrote:

...both arguments are logical fallacies as I'm sure you are aware...

Why would you say that?

Err. perhaps because they are? 😕

Both these ways of arguing are formal logical fallacies and have names (look up 'logical fallacy' on the internet; I used to teach logic and philosophy a decade ago; I can't remember their names now), but it's easy to see how so by considering their form.

Fallacy 1: These forums are always full of complaints after every upgrade.

This has the form: Something has been complained about in the past; therefore, complaint's about it in the present are not justified.

I hope your doctor doesn't have that attitude...("Oh, Mr Phan, you came in here before saying you're sick and you weren't, now you're just doing the same thing again...").

It's akin to the crying wolf parable. Remember what happens at the end? There really is a wolf, so don't go assuming the present complaints are not justified just because they've been made before.

Fallacy 2: This is a tech forum where people come with problems, so the fact that people are complaining here doesn't mean there are any serious problems, it's like going to a hospital and being surprised to find sick people etc etc.

This has the form: This is the place for such problems; therefore, there is no problem outside of here.

Again, I'd hope your doctor doesn't think like that when an epidemic sweeps the town. "Oh dont' worry about all those people with bird flu/swine flu/SARS/HiV/ etc etc, this is a hospital, you'd expect to see them here. There's no problem outside".

If you notice a 1000% rise in people coming into ER with the flu, you'd better start thinking there's even more people out there in the general population with the same problem. The same is true of complaints on tech forums.

You are "outed" - You are just a PC troll here to see yourself post. How many I hate the iPhone vs my Galaxy Nexus Paper-Back book Melted Cream Hybrid Fired Green Tomotoe Display posts have you made? How many Apple support ID's do you have? WHY in the world do you spend so much time here? I'm on a Holiday Weekend, checking Pro-App things I need to Learn about - and I find the boards overrun by PC trolls. Ugh...

Fallacy 2:

You don't see all of the people at the Hospital running around SCREAMING "I'm healthy you're not - nah nah nah nah nah nah" either. In fact - you have none of them doing that. So this board is neither a good sample of the bad or the good - it has just become fox news - Yell the loudest and believe that anything you say is henceforth the actual truth.

You do know the difference between PC and PPC, don't you...?

Might want to edit that one while you can to avoid the embarrassment.

As I originally said when I made the comment about these two forms being fallacies, I hadn't spelled it out knowing that there is not much appetite for sense and reason by most in this discussion. You wasted no time in proving me right.

It's not that analogy that makes the arguments fallacious, its the logical form. Look at it again (nah, in fact don't bother, just remain in your world of ignorance, I really don't care).

Softwater - Just because you are taking logic 101 at university and really like your cartesian philosophy class does not make you smart.

In fact - what you write is sophomoric, and in each case I MEANT PC - as I write PowerPC, an ongoing platform when discussing PowerPC chips - the one in your gaming machine is a variant btw.

If you'd known what you were talking about you would have said Aristotle, not Descartes.

Moreover, that's another logical fallacy you committed right there: ad hominem (I'll let you look that one up yourself).

PS: I don't have a gaming machine, so you're getting both your logical and empirical knickers in a twist now... )

softwater wrote:

I used to teach logic and philosophy a decade ago; I can't remember their names now),

Well that answers a lot. Did you fail the 'Logic' Exam? 10 year old Logic amd Philosophy is all you have to offer? No wonder you just 'can't get' Lion.

But rattle on an continue making a fool of yourself. It keeps some entertained.

Cheerio

mulligans missus wrote:

10 year old Logic amd Philosophy is all you have to offer? No wonder you just 'can't get' Lion.

LOL! 😁 😁 😁 mulligans you really are a treasure. I used to think you were playing dumb to troll, now I'm beginning to believe you actually believe what you say (quick test? Which way is up? No, its not down there by your feet, unless you're standing on your head... 😁 😁 😁 ).

I'm afraid you've caught me out with my 10-year old logic. That's so OUTDATED! I've got a little secret for you, which is that its even older than that (try 2,300 years or thereabouts).

I know, all that education stuff, just SOOOO irrelevant!! The iPhone and Cloud are where its at, not dusty old logic books! I should leave it all behind! Oh, silly me.

Ever wonder, though, how exactly do all those smartphones, fancy comptuers and internet 'cloud' services work? I wonder if any of the principles they're based on could be related to, oh I dunno, the laws of logic formalised by Aristotle, refined by the Port Royal medieval scholars, extended by Frege (as long ago as the 19th century would you believe! - how outdated is THAT!), and exploited by Turing (1940s! Way past it, what a fuddy duddy!!!)?

What? And then borrowed by Gates, Jobs, Allen and a load of other computer scientists in the 60s? Of course I'm being ridiculous! Am I suggesting that object oriented programming, distributed computing, fuzzy algorithms and all that crazy stuff actually depends on 2500 year old principles of formal logic! GODDDDDD, I must have had one too many bottles of red wine in the Student Union this afternoon!

CRAZY that anyone would suggest such a thing, huh? You just couldn't make it up !!!

Wow, education these days...

😮

softwater wrote:

I know, all that education stuff, just SOOOO irrelevant!! The iPhone and Cloud are where its at, not dusty old logic books! I should leave it all behind! Oh, silly me.

Summed up beautifully Grandpa.

Happy Philoshophying or whatever the aincent term is. lol Should have picked you as one of them much earlier! lol

Sadly you believe that the unbroken bindings on your first editions sitting in view make you intelligent. Many here KNOW how this "cloud" thing works, we built it in the 90's at SCO and SUN. We called it Tarantella. You however are nothing more than a Kings Wit, and this charade has run it's course. Move along - the world prefers not to receive any more of your witless comments.

And it is HILARIOUS that you believe pre-plague anything has to do with computing - excepting maybe aquaducts and trade. Computing is simply the result of greed, there is no logic, no great thinkers, no philosphers - else we would have no cloud, be served by robots, and have a world population totalling that of China.

Eric, don't pick fights you can't win. At least mulligans has got style. Your previous shameful comments (thankfully removed by the mods) tell us everything we need to know about you.

Er...

Fallacy 1: These forums are always full of complaints after every upgrade.

This has the form: Something has been complained about in the past; therefore, complaint's about it in the present are not justified.

No it doesn't. One is simply a statement of fact. It makes no assertion at all about the validity of anything. It's either true - the are always complaints after an upgrade - or it's not - there was an upgrade and the forum was not full of complaints.

Fallacy 2: This is a tech forum where people come with problems, so the fact that people are complaining here doesn't mean there are any serious problems, it's like going to a hospital and being surprised to find sick people etc etc.

This has the form: This is the place for such problems; therefore, there is no problem outside of here.

Again, uttelrly incorrect. Quite apart from the fact that you amusingly mischaracterise the hosptial analogy (do you really not understand it? Or just being dishonest?) your description of the form is nowhere near a summery of the statement.

Really. Logic?