About the little scrollbar arrows...

Though this is by no means a solution, and I'm not sure how this could help with a trackpad, but holding option while grabbing the slider does help quite a bit (though still not a line-by-line solution).

rossCantChangeAfterYouCreateYourAccount wrote:

Pete,

The apps you mentioned are not for code development iOS/JAVA/C/C++ or are the for circuit design or PCB design review. These tasks often require close detailed comparison of two complex datasets. I used to use my iMac for these tasks that are otherwise done on Linux or Windows platforms.

Having fine per line mouse control of screens was something Apple learned from the researchers at Xerox Parc, but this was also available on engineering workstations from Hewlett Packard, Sun Microsystems, Wang Labs, and others.

Now that we are appealing to mass consumer markets for operating systems, it is becoming apparent to me that the communities that developed these technologies for the masses will have to return to niche software platforms to find the utility the need to get their work done.

I for one, will no longer suggest an iOS or Windows platform for industrial computing tasks as a result of the shift in focustabloids markets without continuing to support legacy behaviors.

Although I would be proud to consider myself the only one asking for this capability, there are likely other engineers doing similar work. I know there are handicapped users negatively impacted by this change. So let's assume that there are three of us, two engineers amd one physically disabled person wishing the arrows had remained.

I looked into porting E17(Enlightenment) as a window manager, but OSX no longer runs X11 natively. X11 runs as a service inside OSC, as a result, there is no way to use open source solutions to "FIX" OSX and get the pointers back.

For the tasks I used to use Xcode on iMac for, I now just remote desktop Win XP.

Then go back to Snow Leopard. You are using another outdated system in Windows XP anyway.

Cheers

Pete

Please add my name to the growing list of people who want our little arrows at the top and bottom of the scroll bars back! Can we all storm the castle and demand action? The scroll bar alone is just not precise enough! Who can we contact at Apple to lodge a complaint?

I already sent them a complaint. I am actually using an old mac for one of my jobs and it still has the scroll arrows. Since I am doing a lot of work in Excel I love it! It's annoying that some browsers don't work for all things but the mac isn't that old. I just love going from my brand new retina display mac to the six year old mac to use Excel - no sarcasm. I miss some of the new features but for Excel I love the old Mac. And I'm sure Apple doesn't care that I like an old mac better. Do they only care about design and how things look now? I tried to go to a pc for Excel work but just couldn't do it. But I can use an old Mac. I don't see why Apple got rid of them. Leave them, if someone doesn't want them have an option to turn them off!!! Same thing about hiding the library and other things. But at least those you can get to if you really want.

I have 2 complaints, both usability and navigation issues.

I use pages for writing, when I have a 180 page book on-screen moving pages up or down is an inaccurate jerky exercise using the scroll bars, no precision at all, very inelegant for an Apple product. No complaints otherwise with Pages, its a great app but I want those SCROLL BARS BACK! A suggestion - put the arrows on top or bottom of the scroll bar puck.

A related navigation/usability issue is the lack of the hand tool in the Preview app, its annoying having to use the scroll bars to navigate a large image, a two to three step process in many cases. Please bring back the HAND TOOL.

No, I don't have a touchpad and the scroll wheel in my Mac super mouse clagged up long ago and refuses to work.

The two years is because Mac have simply ignored its users. I tried commenting but Mac actually say they do not reply to emails - what bad manners and arrogance! The problem remains the same for those who use or have to use large documents.

Yes, the loss of the hand tool is a major irritation. It really was invaluable as I reguallrly look a lengthy scinetific papers and absolutely need to move to move up and down line by line and not jump in page size chunks (even using continuous scrolling).

For maximum accuracy down to near pixel size photoediting, I have used a Logitech USB Trackball for several years. The only movements you need are with the fingers and thumb. The mouse remains stationary and hours of use do not lead to any fatigue. No mouse mat and no space required other than that of the mouse footprint.

The majority has nothing to do with it. If they have no use for the scroll arrows then they simply will not use them. I am sure there was no cost saving, etc. for Mac and so it was only the minority who simply lost out.

Any way what about "Minority Rights"? How do you know "we" are a "handful of others"?

if people upset you or annnoy you pete, then i suggest you unsubscribe to the thread

personally I see the dropping of the scroll arrows an attack on the pro/power user

the sort of user that has documents that are 100s if not thousands of pages long

that has folders and subfolders containing 100,000s of files etc

that use macs professionally day in day out, some (like me) since the 1980s

apple appear to be trying to turn the OS into a kiddy simplified version suitable for about 80% of users

Pretty much any removal of functions is a bad thing, and the scroll arrows are just one of a few features apple has dumped, and i can't think of many that have been added which has aided productivity

I use a large graphics tablet daily, along with a magic trackpad, and logitech mouse. I used to be able to pretty much use the tablet all the time but the scroll arrows issue amongst others has now forced me to to use alternative inputs...

being forced into using something else is pretty annoying and unnecesary

i'd say that mountain lion is actually more difficult to use than previous versions, and thats not something for apple to be proud of

i doubt if the interface designers actually use it year on year every day, and the decision makers probbaly just read emails and drink coffee

I'd also say that the gui designers are probbaly youg and have good or well corrected viksion, as the OS has been getting worse for people with ageing eyesight, with the removal of colour as visual cues in the finder as an example

anyway pete don't get shirty cos people are frustrated, its quite rude and annoying really :-)

Totally agree with your response adream.

I've been using Apple products for 30+ years.

I too have large documents that need precise editing tools.

I don't feel that I should have to buy more gear in order to use software that Apple has reduced the functionality of, that's product hard-sell Apple.

So, scroll arrows, hand tool in Preview and options to colour customise folders in the finder window and elsewhere, bring them back.

Barrie

Pete,

I already have told Apple so would you please stop trolling this topic with your inane responses, I'm NOT talking to you, I'm just generally ********, as are others, about lost functionality in some of Apple's products and a tendency by Apple to Walmart or Ikea their products.

Barrie

Excuse us, but this is the Apple Support Communities site, so we have every right to use this forum to "tell Apple our problems"! I understand that Apple monitors its own forums to understand the needs and wants of its users, so everyone is entitled to have their say on the issues and problems they face.

The lack of scrollbar arrows is a legitimate issue for power users, so it is suggested that fatuous comments like "buy a trackpad" simply shows a lack of understanding of what we face. It seems to me that an option for Apple would be to allow users to show or hide the arrows - similar to showing and hiding many other features, including the scrollbars. I'm sure that wouldn't upset people's sensibilities.

And I will repeat what others have said...this is a usability and accessibility issue - not simply an issue of what the "majority" wants.

Look up usability and accessibility, Pete, you might learm something.

I also am annoyed as I stated before. I don't think we are a minority. I can't fathom why they didn't leave the scroll arrows and have an option to turn them off. Believe me I've complained to apple. Everyone from my 83 year old grandmother to my younger cousin use macs and we'd all like the scroll bars back. If you hold option scroll it semi works but it's very annoying. As a designer I know what good design is but I also know function and I'd rather my computer function than just look pretty. In fact my mom told my dad don't upgrade to the newest system, there's nothing you need. (iTunes also doesn't function well and have had many including me downgrade). As a Mac user since the early 90's I really like Mac but actually do need the arrows. Had to work on huge excel documents lately and thank goodness my job still has an old Mac. I've got the newest retina display Mac and love it but multiple times daily I get angry because of no arrows. A scrolling mouse does not work. Please complain to Apple so they'll see it's not just a few of us who are annoyed with this!

Also, this is on Apples official website. I have viewed many other threads on this same topic. As I stated before it wouldn't have been that hard for Apple to just add a little option to get rid of the arrows. I don't think they are outdated at all. I still see them on the PC at work and as much as I hate pc's they do have some features I like. From the second I opened my new mac I had things I hated. Hiding the library was the first thing. (Was able to get to that since I know computers) I'm not dumb and don't want my mac just for form. I need things like this back. Who wishes they had their 6 year old emac back when they just got a brand new retina display macbook pro? That's insane but I was constantly wishing for some of the old features I had. I have been using my new computer for a few months now and still find myself going to my Iphone for most things. I never check email- no scroll arrows to go through thousands of emails? No thank you. I have complained multiple times to Apple. This is an apple message board and we want Apple to see our unhappyness. If we send them off an email who knows if they care or read it. But if they see many people complaining in public..even if they don't then we all know it's not just us who have this problem. I can write to them 1,000 times but nothing gets done so I am going to other users who feel the same as I do. We've complained to Apple multiple times. That doesn't work!

i'm with you there about hiding the library, highly annoying for a power user or service and support

retrograde steps

removal of colour cues in the finder

removal of accessible library folder

removal of scrubbing and volume control from media previews in the finder

removal of SMS capabilities in the address book

removal (but reinstateable) of scroll bars, status bar, desktop icons, hard drive icons from sidebar, all of which provide feedback to the user, and lets not forget reversing scroll direction after decades of trouble free use :-)

there are more but i can't think of them at the mo..

not to keen on slowly being forced to use the app store for software installs, you should be able to use an operating system with out being online and having an account with some commercial store, but that's a whole different area, and I'm off topic enough already

I totally forgot about the audio thing! I just stopped using the preview because of that. And maybe I just have to look at how to change it but my old imac, maybe two years old has the quick look button right there in the window. Now I've got to click on something and go down to quick look. Not that annoying but it's not just a "quick look" anymore. But maybe It can be changed just hate having to find solutions for everything. But i've noticed many things nowadays update when they don't need to. Why update to something that is not as good? How is getting rid of features people loved better? The library thing really annoyed me but I found a solution. But the solution wouldn't have been so easy for some people who like Mac because it is easier to use. And I totally agree with you on the app store thing too. I can't just click I don't want to update now. I have to go and see what I don't really want to update to click do not update right now. Very annoying! Yes it's off topic but I don't care. It says we are unhappy with removing features we loved and used not just the little scroll arrows.