About the little scrollbar arrows...

Thank you macgirl_k, adream and others in favor of getting the arrows back, which I'd like to see up and down at both top and bottom of the scroll bar! Puttiing the pointer on an arrow and just tapping makes life so much easier and if you hold it down (tap and don't release) the content scrolled rapidly and because screen refresh is so quick I could find what I'm looking for (a photo in a large document or PDF easily).

I watch movies on my iPod Touch which never had arrows and do you know how hard it is to go back 30 seconds to rewatch something that you wanted to confirm what you saw or heard? 10 minutes back is more like what you'll get.

I'd also like to see the ability to change the upper border of the active window (and the inactive one), like you can with Windoze (at least XP, 2000 and likely 7). It's just so hard to rapidily decide "is this border slightly darker gray than that other gray border, thus indicating it as the active window?" I'd like to make my active border medium green or blue and leave the inactive windows gray. I found the same with tabs in Safari. I now use Firefox with ColorTabs add-on which gives each tab a different color and you can change how much colorful the active tab is compared to the non-active tab.

The other thing I found most annoying was that using a touchpad I can move the content versus the scroll OK with the "new" reversed-direction two-finger moving (like iPod, iPhone, etc), however, when I hook up a mouse with a scroll-wheel it also changed the way that works. They can't be set independantly. It got so hard to work with the mouse scroll-wheel I changed my Mac back to scrolling the bar instead of the content.

My 4 cents worth.

Ok, it seems that I sparked quite a discussion here, so wanted to update folks...

I started this discussion and subsequent arguements with Apple as I love Apple computers and refuse to even consider a return to Windoze as that is a form of self abuse, and I have enough on my plate without that crap.

I have ataxic cerebral palsy which mainly affects my arm control so a reliable computer and printer have been essential since they first landed in my old special school in Liverpool (England) during the 1970's. Many special schools tested the early computers and as children, we fed back on userbility, arguably improving things along the road of computer tetechnology.

To be able to use my computer (Apple Intel desktop 12gb, 320gb HDD (for iTunes media) and 2 x 1TB HDDs, I must use the following:

Traxys Rollerball+ (a large trackerball with button and directional locks, designed for people of all ages who have coordination difficulties.)

A metal keyguard over the entire keyboard which has a hole over each key to give accuracy when using a keyboard.

KeyStrokes word prediction software by www.assistiveware. com which I beta tested as word prediction software intrests me greatly, and is essential to my sanity.

When I first installed 10.7 and saw that the scroll bar was ultra thin and without the usual arrows, I was shocked, but combed System preferences, assuming that the change was optional and could be changed “back to normal“...

When reality hit, I was first shocked, then furious that Apple could make such a drastic change which was not only not optional, but flied in the face of user friendlyness, and the all important accessibility which Apple has always had a brilliant record on (I used to be in charge of IT provision for disabled students and ststaff at a university, sso wasn't just looking at this in terms of cerebral palsy, but other disabilities, and ease of use by non disabled people

After lodging several feedback forms with Apple as some of you have posted links to and getting no response, I started phoning Apple and basically asking why... I kept on doing this and finally got an answer.

Wait for it folks, this is hilarious...

The change was made as Apple want OS X to look and behave more like the iPad...

When I asked many people here a big touch screen monitor or Apple laptop, there was literally a pause, then a reply something like “oh my god, we never thought of that“... I was absolutely staggered and demanded that somebody pretty high up in Apple e−mail or phone me...

Ententer in to the saga, Margaret Lordan, a European manager... She has phoned and e−mailed several times that the issue is being considered, but knows nothing more. Great.

I know that people posting here are divided on the issue, but please consider these points.

If the scroll bar arrows were made optional in System Preferences, everybody would be happy. Those of you against this should remember that the optional accessibility options in System Preferences have always been there, can all change how your Apple computer works, but non of you non disabled participants here call for these to be removed because you are fortunate enough not to need them.

If you still don't understand what accessibility means, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aRsBYAsO4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

There are quite a few assistiveware videos on Youtube, all gaurenteed to make you see to make non disabled people see Apple computers, and this issue in a different a different way...

Sarah, in Cornwall, England

Thank you, Sarah, for this beautifully clear articulate explanation of the origins of this discussion thread and why we should all care about this issue, whether it affects us personally or not. Even if you have not yet had the response from Apple that you should have had, it's good to know that they are looking into it. Please keep us updated and let us know if there is anything we can do to support this cause. I think we have all contacted Apple but if there is anything else...

Elizabeth in Newfoundland

Sarah, thanks very much for your thoughtful post, initiative and actually speaking to someone at Apple about this issue. Unfortunately, the disappearance of the arrows, which could easily have been made optional, is only one of many deteriorations and losses of accessibility and efficiency OS X has experienced since Apple switched focus from producing excellent computers to entertainment. Their efforts to make a full-fledged OS similar to its stripped-down cousin iOS very much worry me. Just think about not being able to access the harddrive and your folder-structures any more as everything might be "sandboxed". This can destroy years of well categorized important data and disable cross-platform file sharing or make it very cumbersome. No more saving of everything related to one project in one folder. A nightmare. This progressive decay of OS X (which I thus like to call 'Pussycat') is a major reason to soon abandon this platform - I already regret that I just spend almost $4k on a high-end MacBook Pro. Nice hardware, but many "features", or better the disappearance of well established functionalities, of the OS and some other software are an insult for any competent computer user and long-term Apple customer. Unfortunately, WINDOWS is apparently moving into a similar direction. Thus, it seems we will at some point have no choice but to switch to LINUX and accept the higher burden of system administration that comes with it. Maybe the cheaper hardware prices will compensate us for that. If any Apple representative reads this, please make an effort to at least preserve an optional "expert mode" in OS X that allows full use of the OS with all functionalities and file-handling capabilities. If you want more suggestions for how you can turn OS X into an efficiency-oriented OS that matches user-friendliness and accessibility with optimized workflows for professionals, let me know. There is much to improve.

Wow they are trying to make it like the iPad?! If I wanted an iPad I would buy one. I bought a Mac thinking it would be a Mac. Apparently not. I also noticed that iPhoto doesn't have your photos in a folder you can just open up and view. I dislike that also. I have been a major Apple fan forever. I could never go to Windows but sad that Windows is doing this also. Maybe if enough of us complain? I will keep writing to them maybe if I do it at least once a week; if we all keep complaining. I actually don't use my computer much besides for work or once in awhile Firefox. And I thought I'd be using it all the time, my old computer died but besides a nice screen for watching movies it doesn't offer anything my old Mac didn't offer.

Very well said Sarah. If I wanted an iPad, and I don't, I would buy one. I use a double screen set up for ant taxonomy work and some tiny device or other would be useless. As you wrote, what is the problem for Apple to offer options?

Whohwwww! Thanks, Sarah and the rest of you.

MANY years ago (he said, not wishing to reveal his age) a friend of mine broke her right hand/wrist/arm and couldn't write (until it healed enough - hey, it was in a full forearm cast). I thought about that and started doing things, including writing, left-handed. The things that were revealed both physically and mentally were enourmous to a me, someone who ended up being an engineer. (It gives you a whole new perspective, and this is from the son of my art teacher dad, who was right-handed, but painted with his left hand.)

Having only that brief perspective on an alternate way of having to live really opens the inadequacies of how things are designed - or, how they're not designed. Even something as simple as a matchless lighter can be designed for a right-handed or either-handed person. If the safety switch is on the left side it's a right-handed person's lighter. If it's in the center (top) it's either-handed. (Do they make any with the safety switch on the right?)

A higher percentage of people are right-handed (I am) so that's why many things are designed right-handed. But having the choice is what make people feel good about what they bought.

C'mon Apple, give us the option to have scroll-bar arrows!

Peter,, please stop posting on this thread, you are not contributing whatsoever, you are simply a troll and should know better

we are having a discussion, about accessibility and interfaces, and guess what, there are criticisms of apple, if you don't like it leave

thankyou

I like where this thread is going, ease of use effects all of us, the enabled and disabled, my weakness is poor eyesight and arthritis which makes touch devices more difficult to use than the traditional

any line by line precision is virtualy impossible with a touch interface, so the relentless march to IOS interfaces for desktop machines is a little worrying

This discussion started in August 2011, with the following comment:

"About the little scrollbar arrows...is there any way to get these back in Mac OS X Lion? Or do I need to downgrade to Snow Leopard just get these seemingly trivial but for me necessary things back?"

As far as I can see, the comments from everyone (other than one notable exception) are still very much on topic.

So, until Apple (or some third-party developer) can bring the little arrows back, I suggest we keep talking about the issue, and ignore comments from people who clearly don't want to understand our concerns.

So, until Apple (or some third-party developer) can bring the little arrows back, I suggest we keep talking about the issue, and ignore comments from people who clearly don't want to understand our concerns.

Agreed

<Edited By Host>

I know it doesn't help with scroll arrows but I have been running "TotalFinder" for the last few days which amongst other things easily brings the colour icons back to the finder side bar.

I'm still using it in demo mode (14 days) and it costs $18 to buy, I'm not recommending it but its worth a look, I wont give a link as that would be too much of a plug :-)

It would be great if someone wrote a similar plugin to bring the scroll arrows back, I'm sure it is possible

Two Quasi Solutions

1. On their own, Adobe has added scrollbar arrows to Illustrator CS6. They don't seem to be in any other CS6 programs, so they must be testing their functionality. The arrows help a lot, especially with those little color swatch palettes.

2. I recently tested a Logitech M510 wireless mouse. It's top rated on Amazon and it worked great for about a week before I returned it. It is not as responsive as the Apple Magic Mouse (or apparently as well made), but it has one thing that no Apple mouse has every had: a scroll wheel. And it's a ratcheted scroll wheel with variable sensitivity. You can crank up the sensitivity to a line at a time, which works even better than scrollbar arrows. You can tilt the wheel left and right to move sideways, and holding the wheel down lets you scroll up a page at a time. I don't know why Apple has an aversion to scroll wheels, but they're great. The little wheel in the old Apple mouse was a joke in comparison. If Apple could make a mouse with a scroll wheel that matches the accuracy of the Magic Mouse, they'd have a hit and the loss of scrollbar arrows would no longer be an issue.

This thread is good because I've been messaging that link for a while - months, many months and I haven't gotten any response none have so that link does nothing! At least we are discussing amongst ourselves ways to help the problems we have encountered. I'm one of the biggest Mac fans I know but there are many features I wish Apple would bring back. I understand when people don't like bringing back a two-year-old thread though. But what's the point of starting a new one when it will be the same topic? I never understand that. I guess I could create a new thread with the same topic again. But like I said I don't understand why.

macgirl_k wrote:

Also, this is on Apple.com. Do they not have any moderators?

No. Not here. The forums have their own moderators who have had to remove numerous nasty and irrelevant comments from within this thread. Being over two years old it is only the usual suspects keeping this thread open. The only way to achieve anything is by hounding Apple in numbers through their official feedback channels. Obviously nowhere near enough people have complained to make them see fit to return it. Do remember that the younger generation who have bought millions of Macs over the last two years have never even seen the scroll bar arrows and thus will never miss them compared to older users.

Cheers

Pete

I'm not that old. I've been using macs since I was a kid. It's a usability issue when we have things that need the arrows. They should make the option to turn them back on. I will never get used to them not being there. Maybe new users do wish something like that was there but as you said they never knew it was a feature. But in my family I have people aged 18-82 who want some of the old features back.