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Very Serious iCloud + Pages Questions

I have a lot of anxiety about the way iCloud stores documents. The information from Apple is unclear. All I know is that documents will be stored in the app itself. That's fine if you only have dozen or so documents, but I have about 2,500 Pages documents, arranged in a clear and easy-to-use hierarchy of folders. I used SugarSync to keep the files and folders identical on all devices. So I have these questions:

Will iCloud give me the alternative of storing files in the file system, where they are easy to find?

If I choose not to use iCloud, will Pages continue to save documents in the file system? If it won't, I have to abandon Pages.

Will iCloud automatically import all the Pages documents from the file system into Pages? If so, will it move the files or create duplicates?

If there are duplicates, how will I know which copy of a file I'm opening?

How will I be able to find and delete duplicates? With 2,500 files, it isn't going to be easy or obvious if it's a manual procedure.

Will iCloud recreate the way I have organized my 2,500 files in the file hierarchy?

Will iCloud put my 2,500 files in one place and force me to reorganize them through a grueling manual process dragging them on top of each other one by one?

Will iCloud allow me to have only one level of folders, as in the iPad version of Pages, LaunchPad, and the first Macintosh? There's a reason why Apple abandoned a flat filing system on the Macintosh in the 1980s; that reason is still valid today.

What does iCloud do if a Pages file requires files of a different type, such as JPEG files, or needs to be stored in the same place as files of a different type, such as the Word, Pages, and plain text version of a resume?

If iCloud destroys the way I've organized my files, what happens if two files with different content in different parts of the file hierarchy have the same name?

Obviously I can't use iCloud for documents until I know the answers to these questions, or I risk a huge mess.

iMac 24-OTHER, Mac OS X (10.7)

Posted on Oct 5, 2011 1:38 PM

86 replies

Mar 1, 2012 11:31 AM in response to Wilfred Hildonen

The "simplified" system is actually more complicated.

Let's imagine you have a workshop. You have separate boxes for slotted, Phillip, Allen, Torx, and Square screws, sorted in compartments by length and size, with the corresponding nuts and washers. You have wood screws, sheet metal screws, drywall screws, and machine screws. You also have boxes for wood nails, concrete nails, and picture-hanging nails. You've got them all systematically filed away in boxes that have compartments.

Now I will give you a "simpler" system. Instead of all those boxes with compartments, I bring in a big box and dump all of your screws, nuts, washers, and nails in it. I'll also throw in all your hammers, screwdrivers, drill bits, glass cutters, wire cutters, pliers, and wrenches, and shake it all up. "Hey!" you say, "That's not a solution! That's the problem that I solved with the compartmentalized boxes!"

Suppose you need a half-inch brass wood screw to mount your mailbox to the post and the screwdriver that fits the screw. Aren't you glad you have your new "simplified" filing system? Okay, it is hard. So I will let you pick out the nails and screws one by one and drop them on each other and they will make magnetic piles. Will that help? Remember, you can't put the washers in the same pile as the screws they fit.

This is a regression to DOS 1. Back then, only a couple of file extensions were significant. So we "dropped" files into "folders" by giving them extensions, such as MEM for memo or LTR for letter. That worked out so well (sarcasm) that the second version of DOS had hierarchical directories. The first version of the Mac OS did not have actual folders, they were groups based on the name of the file. It wasn't until later that we got the Hierarchical File System.

In a hierarchical system, there is nothing to prevent messy people from sticking all their files in one directory. In the old-fashioned flat file system, organized people are forced to be messy. By going to a flat filing system, we are solving the solution with the problem.

Mar 10, 2012 8:31 AM in response to Kenneth Collins1

I see we are all having the same problem and asking the same quwestion, but i do not see an answer. If anyone has gotten or found one please Email me.

Williamian88@gmail.com

debtrigg

Level 1

9 points

Apr 3, 2012 5:00 PM in response to Kenneth Collins1

Because of all the "smoke & mirrors" in my estimation, I stick with Sugarsync.

Owenhw

Level 1

0 points

Apr 9, 2012 11:33 AM in response to williamian

Answer lies in upcoming OS X Mountain Lion.. it will suppor iCloud in Pages for Mac. 😀

i can't wait !!

pfaf

Level 1

0 points

Apr 16, 2012 4:33 PM in response to Kenneth Collins1

This is a very good analogy, and is what I'm worried about as well. However, let's add in Spotlight search:

Imagine that the "simpler" system of one big box containing everything also came with an assistant who is much better at finding things in the box than you are. If you need that half-inch brass screw and the screwdriver that fits it, you simply say to your assistant, "Hey! grab me a half-inch brass screw and its screwdriver" and he runs over, effortlesslessly finds them in the bin, and returns them to you.

Also imagine you go to the hardware store and bring home some brand new tools. Maybe they're really obscure tools that you don't really know what else they would go with. In the old system, you'd have to decide which box and compartment to put them in. Maybe none of your existing boxes work well, so you put them in one that's not the greatest fit (you might forget they're in there, because they don't fit well with that category), or you create a whole new box for the new tools (which is another box you need to look past to get to other boxes). With the new system, just throw them into the big box. It doesn't matter that they're not organized, because your assistant can always just instantly pull them out, as long as you know what they're called.

Using spotlight to search for files works really well, especially if you know what fiels are called. It can also search content, especially for files containing text. So even if you don't know what the particular screwdriver is called, you can still tell you assistant "its a long phillips head and I think it has either a red or blue handle". Your assistant brings everything that fits that description, and you can more easily chose the correct one.

The flat iCloud file system might work ok for many files if A) Files are named in logical, descriptive ways; and B) The user relies on search to find files.

Apr 16, 2012 5:21 PM in response to Owenhw

This is something to dread, not to cheer. Pages has a smaller feature set and fewer fonts on the iPad. Mac Pages files are conveted to iOS Pages files when they are moved. The only way to use Mac Pages documents in iPad Pages is to truncate the features and reduce the file to the lowest common denominator, which in my case means that the files will require extensive editing to be somewhat like they were before. It's too much manual labor, I am NOT looking forward to downgrading the Mac to an iOS device.

Apr 16, 2012 5:36 PM in response to pfaf

If there is a hierarchical file system, a messy person can simply ignore it and use Spotlight to make sense of his mess.

If there is no hierarchical file system, a neat and tidy person cannot use it.

Therefore the hiearchical file system must remain. It's presence doesn't affect anyone who doesn't use it. It's absence is devasting to the productivity of a person who needs it. A neat and tidy person who spent 13 years constructing a carefully contrived hierarchical folder structure and putting 3,800 files in them is NOT going to be happy or productive if he has to spend ten years making sense out of the mess. Apple might as well go into my office, open all the file cabinets, and throw the contents all over the floor.

Right now, it's very easy to drill down to find a file. I don't have to spend all day searching for "shovel" when it turns out that the file I'm looking for has "spade." I can find a file with five or fewer clicks, even if I can't recall the wording or the filename. I can find files instantly that Spotlight can't find at all.

If Apple puts all the files in one place and makes me play Launchpad's zip-and-zoom-drag-and-drop video game to put them in "folders" that are only one level deep, and if I live one enough to finish the task, I'll have about 300 top-level "folders" instead of three. Things will be much harder to find, even with Spotlight.

I don't think Apple should assume that all users are disorganized or that Macs are iPads. Neither is true.

Arelunde

Level 1

4 points

Apr 25, 2012 3:39 PM in response to Kenneth Collins1

The only thing I can think of - IF Apple does away with the heirachial folder system - is to start naming files with signature or project-specific prefixes, so Spotlight can call them up by prefix.

Not a step forward, by any means. I wish there were some definittive information out there. It's terribly worrisome when your income depends on "the way things are" on your Mac (or PC, for that matter). No one has the time or wants to put out the effort to re-build a workable, complex system already in place.

One thing that no one has mentioned (that I can see) ... iOS 6. It's supposedly coming late summer to early Fall with the next generation iPhone. Perhaps there's will be an across-the-board improvement where capabilities in iOS will be expanded to match the Mac - and then all can be added to iCloud.

We can only hope.

May 1, 2012 1:12 PM in response to Kenneth Collins1

I too cant get where apple is going.

I was a moble me member from the beginning.

I have every apple product know to man and I just got my calender to quit showing 3 copies of every appointment.

I am teribly worried about file storage. The one thing I got from IBM computers was the file tree. iwork products claim to allow me to share files between devises. I tpye a document in Pages and when I try to save it, I cant find the cloud.

Cloud folder is in my finder, that is I can get it in the drop down menu for Finder Go:idisk:my idisk. But I cant find if I am in pages and choose to save.

I expcet icloud to say allow me to have a directory on my home computer and office computer that copy to cloud.

Apple is getting more confusing as attempt is made to simplify. It seems like technicians are now trying to make their job easier,not mine.

May 1, 2012 1:40 PM in response to Apple Blues

Saving to iCloud

iWork for iOS has a different file format than iWork for OS X, also, iOS devices do not have all the fonts that are on OS X. Moving a file between OS X and iOS involves a conversion process. You have to move files manually between OS X and iOS.

Go to the iWork portion of the iCloud web site.
Drag files from the browser to the Mac, or to the browser from the Mac. That puts them through the conversion process.
All the devices will sync.

The files are stored in a not-so-secret location in the Library folder. It's best that you don't mess with it. You can also move them to or from iCloud on the apps tab of an iOS device in iTunes.

Saving directly to iCloud from OS X is a Mountain Lion feature.

Duplicate Entries

Duplicate entries happen when the date-time stamps are messed up. This can happen if the clock is not correct on one of the devices, or if you manually add a duplicate entry to one of your devices when it is off line.

Turn off iCloud on all computers and devices.
Clean up the entries in whichever program is the problem on one computer. This is tedious, I know.
When it all makes sense, export them into a backup file. (File | Export | Archive)
Delete all the entries on all computers and devices.
Go to Date & Time in System Preferences on all devices and computers.
Make sure that the time is set automatically.
Turn on iCloud on all computers and devices.
Import the backup file (ONLY) on the same computer where you exported it.

iCloud propogates the entries. No more duplicates.

May 19, 2012 2:19 PM in response to Kenneth Collins1

Why don't you just back up your data and try it? If you don't like it, then restore back to your original file system and be done with it. There's no reason to worry about your data if you are redundant about it.

Very Serious iCloud + Pages Questions