I want my "save as" back!

Please go to Apple Feedback. These are user forums. You are not speaking to Apple here. The forum is not a haven for gripes and complaints.

As Kappy says, these forums are not for gripes. So this is just to let you know that Apple has made a decision that "Save As" was unnecessary and that their new way is better.

The fact that it isn't better doesn't seem to have crossed their minds.

I no longer know where Apple is going and I'm not sure I want to follow.

For the moment I have downgraded upgraded to Snow Leopard and am keeping Lion in a cage. I throw it a chunk of meat once in a while but it seems very cranky.

Not correct. Apple did not unilaterally make the decision. It was done to satisfy all the users who wanted OS X to provide Autosave and document versioning. Implementing those is what caused the changes.

People like you and the OP who complain about it represent the minority of users. Let's keep that straight.

People like you and the OP who complain about it represent the minority of users. Let's keep that straight.

Since a comprehensive survey has never been taken on that subject, there is no way to know that. It is not a fact.

Kappy wrote:

Apple did not unilaterally make the decision. It was done to satisfy all the users who wanted OS X to provide Autosave and document versioning.

Please provide evidence of how this market research was carried out and where I can read the analysis and results.

I think it was brought in for the hard of thinking myself.

It was one reason that I never liked iPhoto as it took over the filling for you, and there were all these 'versions' around, unlike iTunes where you can have it do what you want. Aperture is similar so I don't use that either as I don't like the way it does things as well.

Hopefully other software companies like Adobe wont adopt this in future releases of their software.

It wouldn't be too bad if there was a sort of 'consolidate' function that basically took the file as it was at that moment saved it and deleted all the previous versions.

At the moment I just wish Apple would fix the sleep problem on my MBP running with an external monitor under Lion. But that's another story for another place.

It was one reason that I never liked iPhoto as it took over the filling for you... Aperture is similar so I don't use that either as I don't like the way it does things as well.

No it doesn't - and neither does Aperture. Both offer the opportunity to store the files for you, but that's storage and nothing to do with filing. They both offer many many more opportunitues for you to categorise, file, search, organise, process and display your photos than the Finder ever does.

The confusion is common and it's related to the 'Save As...' palaver as well. It's based on a simple confusion. Your data is not the file that contains it - anymore than the shoebox is your shoes.

The illustration I use is as follows: In my iTunes Library I have a file called 'Let_it_Be_The_Beatles.mp3'. So what is that, exactly? It's not the song. The Beatles never wrote an mp3. They wrote a tune and lyrics. They recorded it and a copy of that recording is stored in the mp3 file. So the file is just a container for the recording. That container is designed in a specific way attuned to the characteristics and requirements of the data. Hence, mp3.

Similarly, that Jpeg is not your photo, it's a container designed to hold that kind of data. iPhoto and Aperture are all about the data and not about the container. So, regardless of where you choose to store the file, these apps will manage the photo, edit the photo, add metadata to the Photo but never touch the file. If you choose to export - unless you specifically choose to export the original - they will export the Photo into a new container - a new file containing the photo.

iPhoto has been doing this for years. Aperture the same. iMovie, Final Cut and every other database app out there too. Now this form of working with your data rather than the file is coming to everything - and it's coming on every OS.

What is 'Save As...'? One of two things:

Freeze the data at this moment and save it into a different file of the same format. So I freeze the data in this Word File (doc) and save it as another Word File (also doc).

The new process freezes the data at this moment and saves it... into the same file. You can still revert to the data at the same point, you can split and move into different directions and rever to this point and so on. The only difference... the frozen data is accessible via a different method.

Or: Freeze the data at this moment and save in a Different format:So I freeze the data in this Word File (doc) and save it as another kind of file: txt, pdf, rtf etc. That's what export does.

and there were all these 'versions' around, unlike iTunes where you can have it do what you want.

Well "all these 'versions'" were the reason for you to use iPhoto or Aperture - lossless editng. If you didn't want that why would you even consider using these apps in the first place.?

It wouldn't be too bad if there was a sort of 'consolidate' function that basically took the file as it was at that moment saved it and deleted all the previous versions.

Export. Trash the original?

Each to their own.

I tried iPhoto and didn't like it, the same with Aperture which is why I don't use them. I presume I am allowed to try these apps out first to see if they work for me, can't I? Perhaps my choice of the word filing was incorrect, in both these applications you end up with versions for each file which is what I don't like.

In iTunes you don't have versions and you can decide how it does certain things with the files.

OK I am probably an old fuddy duddy, but I think their should be room for both in the world. So those who don't want versions being saved can have it and those that do can. It could be a simple check box in the applications preferences, should be no big deal.

It wouldn't be too bad if there was a sort of 'consolidate' function that basically took the file as it was at that moment saved it and deleted all the previous versions.

Export. Trash the original?

Duplicate. Trash the original.

Wouldn't duplicate preserve the version history?

In iTunes you don't have versions...

Well that might be related to the fact that iTunes offers no editing at all, whereas the other two apps both offer lossless editing? So, really how does that relate?

...and you can decide how it does certain things with the files.

You can decide these things with iPhoto and Aperture too.

So those who don't want versions being saved can have it and those that do can. It could be a simple check box in the applications preferences, should be no big deal.

No, those who don't want versions saved should use an Image Editor. That's an application that will directly edit the file, and overwrite it destructively. You don't use an app that's specifically designed not to do that.

Regards

TD

Really? You believe that those who post in these forums complaining about something represent the majority?

To each his own, Don.

I'm not an Apple employee so I haven't access to the information. I can only relate to you what Apple has publicly stated many times in the past about why they incorporate new things in the operating system. You're always free to believe otherwise.

Terence Devlin wrote:

Wouldn't duplicate preserve the version history?

No, it does not.

Kappy wrote:

Really? You believe that those who post in these forums complaining about something represent the majority?

To each his own, Don.

Nope.

What I indicated is that until a comprehensive survey is taken of Mac users (one including a statistically significant population of all users, not just those who post in these forums), there is no way to know what proportion of them would like "Save As" brought back, and what proportion of them don't care or don't want it.

To say that those who complain about this are a minority of users can not be known. Ditto whether they may be a majority. There are no facts to support either position.