THIS is why there is no upgrade price for Logic Pro X

Not giving those that bought Logic 9 up to 30 days before Logic X came out was unfair and more than a little mean. I'm way more upset about the rapid built in obsolecence of the hardware to be honest. Which is why I decided to get off of this ridiculous upgrade ladder.

My core i5 iMac for buisness and my 8 core Mac Pro for music is where I'm stopping until something goes bang and I cannot get replacement parts. After that, I will think long and hard.

I think this is a choice everyone just has to make for themselves. I still personally use Logic 8 because I had no reason to uograde. The studio where I work uses 9 for clients and X on a test machine but I can't see us going to X for a good while or when projects come in already in X.

Two quick things because it's obvious this thread doesn't really have much point to it any loger...

If you want to argue dub musicians are not in fact musicians but purveyors of noise, that is subjective arguement better suited to a different thread.

Absolutely not! I never said that nor did I intimate that. I simply stated that Pro Users/Studios do not tend to use Reason as their primary DAW of choice... Far, far more use the DAWs I listed... and if you wish to dispute that, feel free to do so but please do not try and put 'words in my mouth' in a manner intended to lessen my point.

If Apple had done as you say, I would not be complaining. This is the only problem I have.

So you are simply complaining that Apple reduced the price of LPX and made it the same price for both existing and new users.. As I said, who cares what anyone else pays for it.. it really doesn't matter one iota..

Octopi.

I agree with your point about the inbuilt obsolence of hardware.. on so many different levels..

Thank you for expressing that point... so eloquently

and to Pancenter,

You know what I think about a bit of healthy cynicism and paranoia!

*grins*

Thank you! (Seriously, as always.. I truly do appreciate your presence here)

It is people like you both.. plus a few others here...that I have thanked in the past... that make this forum well worth the 'admission fee'

Cheers guys...

Art of Sound,

please do not try and put 'words in my mouth' in a manner intended to lessen my point.

please see Webster's Dictionary for a definition of the word "if" which i placed in front of the sentence in question. "If you think" not "you think". i'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth. i might point out that the comment i was replying to here was replete with accusations and you telling us "how it is".

would you be complaining? No

that is all that matters

nothing more, nothing less

you would be singing and dancing

seriously, if you are taking umbrage at my content, you need to take a look at the way you word your missives.

So you are simply complaining that Apple reduced the price of LPX and made it the same price for both existing and new users

do you seriously believe this? do you believe that Apple was acting out of kindness or a sense of respect for their consumers when they reduced the initial price, did away with upgrades, and arranged their world in such a way to keep prospective consumers from finding out about this policy until after the purchase? if you think Apple is acting out of any motive aside from greed, then I don't think you will ever see the other side of this argument, which makes your opening comment about the futility of this thread very salient.

The Art Of Sound wrote:

and to Pancenter,

You know what I think about a bit of healthy cynicism and paranoia!

*grins*

Thank you! (Seriously, as always.. I truly do appreciate your presence here)

It is people like you both.. plus a few others here...that I have thanked in the past... that make this forum well worth the 'admission fee'

Cheers guys...

I was just thinking along the same lines, it's made a huge difference having you in the forums, and I really appreciate your input and balanced knowledge, as well as Octopi, Erik, CCT, Data Stream, KCStudio.. and others I've neglected to mention.

Now, where's my medication. :-)

do you believe that Apple was acting out of kindness or a sense of respect for their consumers when they reduced the initial price,

Of course not.

Your argument is little more than 'reductio ad absurdum.......'

alohapussycat wrote:

do you believe that Apple was acting out of kindness or a sense of respect for their consumers when they reduced the initial price, did away with upgrades, and arranged their world in such a way to keep prospective consumers from finding out about this policy until after the purchase?

You are being way too simplistic here and need to go much further back in time for the reasoning as to how we arrived here, at this juncture.

Logic used to have a dongle that went uncracked for 6 and a half years - the duration of its lifetime. At this point Logic was a grand to buy. When Apple bought Emagic they coveted the underlying technology for their future consumer app Garageband. Even when Logic was a grand, Apple made no money out of the software itself.

It was no coincidence that the dongle vanished at the same time the price of Logic began to drop. In fact, the dongle never vanished at all. The Mac itself became the dongle because Apple makes no money from its software, it is there to sell hardware, which is where they make all of their money. The day Apple bought Emagic they dropped Windows support because Windows didn't run natively on a Mac and they make no money from the software so why bother wasting resource?

You have to get into perspective that Logic, in itself, isn't even a blip on the corporate Apple graph. Why do you think you're allowed to run Logic on almost every Mac you own? Because you have to own the boxes.

That is why they dropped the dongle and with it virtually all protection and that is why they dropped the price to what it is now. Not for you, or me but to drive the sales of their hardware.

My upgrade from Logic 7 to Logic 8 was £200 and I can't remember what the full price was at the time. I think it ws around £800. For me, that £200 was a bargain. You still needed the dongle at this point.

Was it fair not to give a 30 day concession? No, it was not fair. But after that, this is why there is one, very low price for Logic. To drive hardware sales.

This thread is up to six pages now, but this post here is why the new price and the price for existing owners is the same. If they'd dropped the full price to £200 for Logic 8 when I moved, I wouldn't have cared because I owned Logic 7 from when it came out. If I'd just bought Logic 8 at £800 and then they reduced it to £200 I would have been a bit miffed.

Your argument is little more than 'reductio ad absurdum.......'

As is your errant simplification of my argument as to make it about price-point alone. Suggesting that I would be happier if Apple charged $499 for the initial price and $199 to upgrade. I would per my arguement, but you make it appear that I would be happier to PAY that price....'reductio ad adsurdum". I would be happier because the price of being a LP user would be transparent. I would have been happier at $499 because I would have gone with another platform. I happen to think LP is worth more than the $200 price-point, but not worth more than...say $350. You might argue this point, but it comes down to a matter of opinion. If I want the current, well supported piece of software, I will be paying $400 in the first two months of ownership. And I was tricked into doing so by an abberant and clandestine pricing policy. THIS is my only problem with Apple. You have seen the math I was asked to provide. I think you would accept that those software platforms I did not list all, at the very least, provide a path to upgrade. You know that Apple does not provide one. I hope you can see how the system has been arranged to, if not outright hide this fact, at least avoid advertising it at all costs. If the rules of the game are being changed to wide varience from the norm, it is ethical to warn others of the rule change...it is unethical to hide the change to profit yourself. to engage in "reductio ad adsurdum' again to prove my point. It would be like buying a Fender Strat from "Guitar Center" for $1200; $75 cheaper than you had seen it anywhere else and getting home to find that all electronic hardware, wiring, pots, pickups, were no longer included with the purchase of a Strat from Guitar Center. Fender and Guitar Center did not tell you that they changed the rules and you cannot return the item because that is a new unadvertised rule as well. I am certain you would be unhappy with that situation. And I am certain it would not help to hear how you would have been happier paying for that guitar if they had priced it at $1500. Of course you would have been happier...but not because you would have paid it...but because you would have been given the fair chance NOT to pay it. This is about transparency and ethics, Apple sadly lacking both. It is not about conspiracies, the price of LPX, or winning an argument. It is about making the truth about a Fender Strat without pickups, known to the world.

I bought LP9 a few weeks before the realease of LPX. I even went to Mac for LP and bought the late 27inch Imac while on Mac Rumors a lot of people are scared to buy the latest Imac because a new one could be around the corner. This is why Apple should be more transparant.

I love my 2012 Imac and LPX but I don't use LP9 anymore. When was the last time LP9 was updated? Exactly! That's why LPX is an upgrade from LP9 and should be priced accordingly or Apple should be more clear about there price policy and give a headsup of comming release....

alohapussycat wrote:

And where I do differ with your opinion is that I do not believe that Apple can do ANYTHING they want to turn a profit.

Too literal, however... Apple customers rarely call Apple on anything. You remember SJ's quote about Apple fans buying anything the company makes. When you have fanatical support you can pretty much get away with anything. The company as it exists now is much different than the pre iPhone company that needed support of a professional customer base. Like I said earlier. After being so successful.. they have to follow the money.

You left off PT and DP, and you got the initial price for Sonar wrong, it's 499. Updated chart.

So out of eight listed, two are cheaper than Logic, four are more expensive, and one is the same at three upgrades (more than Logic before that, less after). I would never argue that Logic needs to be the cheapest DAW available, but looking at that chart I absolutely would say it's a relative bargain for what you get.

Although reason is a DAW now, I can't say I know a single person or have even heard of anyone using the DAW functionality. I know guys who use it, but rewired to other DAW apps. Studio One and Reaper are definitely way cheaper by far than anything else. People love those apps, but many don't consider them to be as full featured as the more mature DAWs.

Other things to keep in mind are that future upgrade prices may stay the same or may change. 99 for the Sonar upgrade is a great deal but there's no guarantee it will be the same when the next paid release ships. Another factor in total cost is how often paid upgrades happen. Again, we can't predict the future, but other apps have had much shorter times between paid upgrades, both PT and Cubase have had windows less than a year (and Cubase charges for .5 updates). The chart above is just a ballpark, and when you add up real numbers over a fixed period of time as opposed to number of upgrades, Logic comes out even further ahead of some of them.

alohapussycat wrote:

Now LP is definatley on par with Sonar and Presonus.

But Reason (the Suite) and Cubase are recognized by most professional users as more serious software packages.

I won't include my rankings of these packages because that would be my opinion.

Funny, those statements sure look like rankings. And I can't agree with them, nor do I take seriously claims about how "most professional users" supposedly feel.

I also don't see how apple keeps their pricing policies "secret". There have never been paid upgrades on the app store for any app, ever. Apple doesn't put that on the front page of the site in giant letters, but it's common knowledge and has been for years.

If you really think your money is better spent elsewhere, instead of paying to upgrade to Logic X, go spend it elsewhere.

I was tricked into doing so by an abberant and clandestine pricing policy.

Now you're just being a drama queen. With ANY software, if you buy at the wrong time you're sad because you have to pay again after not having the software very long. The only difference between these companies is the specific dollar amounts and the specific lengths of time. With most of these you can pick the date just before the cutoff and give an example that is "abberant and clandestine". Except that in

Mike,

I really don't want to enter into any protracted arguments with Apple apologists. If you think Apple is the niftiest thing since sliced bread....by all means keep buying into that. I do feel the need to defend myself on a couple of points...

Funny, those statements sure look like rankings. And I can't agree with them, nor do I take seriously claims about how "most professional users" supposedly feel.

My point was to avoid injecting my own opinion. I was speaking in terms of the opinions of others. In fact, the sight I pulled all the numbers from was a ranking of the top ten professional DAWs and I included those I thought in the same fiscal plain as LP (which is why I dropped Nuendo). I do not know why and cannot comment as such as to why PT and DP did not make the list. The point is that I could have waxed on about my own experiences and what I thought, but I figured that was irrellevant to the conversation.

I also don't see how apple keeps their pricing policies "secret". There have never been paid upgrades on the app store for any app, ever. Apple doesn't put that on the front page of the site in giant letters, but it's common knowledge and has been for years.

The caveat here is that until you actually purchase a piece of professional software from the sight, and see an update, you would never know. Because it is not, in fact, common knowledge. How exactly would I come about this "common knowledge"? And it is secret because not only does Apple not, as you said, put in in giant letters on their front page...they do not put it in ANY SIZE letters ANYWHERE on their page.

Now you're just being a drama queen. With ANY software, if you buy at the wrong time you're sad because you have to pay again after not having the software very long. The only difference between these companies is the specific dollar amounts and the specific lengths of time. With most of these you can pick the date just before the cutoff and give an example that is "abberant and clandestine".

Now you are just being rude. If you look at my messages, I have made every effort to prove my point without resorting to name calling. If you take a look at the list you made a point of including in your last message...you will see EVERY SINGLE OTHER COMPANY included a path to upgrade. Apple does not....I don't think you could find a better example of the word abberant. Please find the definition below. Clandestine essentially means "secret" and if I did not prove my point above with the comment "they do not put it in any size letters anywhere on their page" I don't think you will ever understand my point. If I am considered a "drama queen" for using the english language accurately, that is a sad commentary on the state of education. I will be retiring from this conversation now, as what started as an exchange of ideas has degenerated to homophobic slurs.

ab·er·rant

ˈabərənt,əˈber-/

adjective

1. departing from an accepted standard.

apologists.

We have a list of pricing for eight DAWs. Two of them are cheaper than Logic. And yet you think I'm the one with blinders on. Whatever.

I was speaking in terms of the opinions of others.

Yeah, I know, you're inflating your opinion by insisting it's What Everyone Thinks. I'm not sure why you even bought Logic in the first place if you think it's a second rate app.

And if calling you on being obnoxious and out of touch makes me rude, than I'm happy to be rude.

EVERY SINGLE OTHER COMPANY included a path to upgrade

No kidding. And many of those paths to upgrade end up costing much more in the long run. The reason so few Logic users are complaining is because they're happy to be spending less money than the PT guys and have the basic common sense to prefer lower cost to paying more but having it called "upgrade pricing". VERY happy.

homophobic slurs

Hilarious. And if we're going to quote dictionary entries, giant font and all...

drama queennouninformala person who habitually responds to situations in a melodramatic way.

You got the pricing on Reason wrong too, it's $399 for the first version. So it's still cheaper than logic by the third upgrade, but only by ten bucks. And wrong on Studio One as well, it's $299 (for this month, then it goes up to $399), and upgrades are $149. That puts it at $746 after three upgrades if you got it on sale, otherwise $846. So out of those eight, logic is either the third cheapest by fifty bucks if you got SO on sale, or the second cheapest by ten bucks. But still, only one of those nutty "apologists" would dare argue that it's a relative bargian.

mike,

okay....i said i was done....and maybe i am an idiot by letting you bait me with your incredibly twisted logic, but...

We have a list of pricing for eight DAWs. Two of them are cheaper than Logic. And yet you think I'm the one with blinders on. Whatever.

never denied there were more expensive DAWs....NEVER....please quote where I say that LP is the most expensive...PLEASE.

I'm not sure why you even bought Logic in the first place if you think it's a second rate app.

this is where i am certain you are just baiting me....you can't be that obtuse. everyone of my messages on this board makes the point that I think Logic is a fine DAW (please quote where I say otherwise...PLEASE), i bought LP9 because Apple made it appear as though i was getting a DAW worth $300 or so for $199. two months later i find, for a well supported piece of software, i would be out $400. i have spelled this out chapter and verse in several messages.

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