Exchange servers and Mavericks Mail

inked at dolltattoos wrote:

Do this: back up your Mac with Time Machine. Do a fresh OS X install. Configure just Mail. Test. Test it on the same switch as the Exchange server, or as close as possible. Bring back your applications until Mail stops working. The point us to get moving.

Or stand on your broken escalator and continue to rail.

Business folks indeed.

Hello, rude person. I'll do you one better.

1. Brand new macbook, always was Mavericks never was anything else.

2. My own Exchange server.

3. My own IMAP server.

4. Packet sniffers on the links.

5. Mail.app is caffeinated

What happens is that Mavericks stops connecting. It connects to them on startup, gets into IDLE state with both IMAP and ActiveSync, and then... just stops responding.

Nothing else running on the Mac except "top". 16GB of RAM, nothing but Mac OS installed. Latest patch level.

Behavior is inconsistent. The point at which Mail stops responding to IDLE notifications of new mail could happen in 2 minutes or could happen in 4 hours, but IT ALWAYS HAPPENS IN LESS THAN 8 HOURS. If you set up a sniffer and watch the links, it will always occur before the 8 hour mark.

Sometimes Mail wakes up a few hours later, dropping the previous session and starting a new one. Sometimes it doesn't. Putting the macbook to sleep and waking it up will sometimes cause a session drop and reconnect. The old TCP session never recovers.

Fresh reload of the operating system from the repair disk changes nothing. Can reproduce in 8 hours every time.

Further: often incoming mail will continue to work but outbound mail stops going out. When this happens no outbound connection is attempted. The mail sits in the outbound folder, but the sniffer sees no attempt, zero, to reach the outbound mail server. Again, restarting the app is 80% likely to cause it to reconnect, but sometimes a full reboot is required. A reboot is guaranteed fix, and mail will always go out.

These are the facts. Real facts on the group proven by packet capture and careful analysis in a test lab, with all of the equipment under our control. So lose the rude, because you've just been shown the door. Get out.

inked at dolltattoos wrote:

What I do not get is how ***** can sit here and complain about their free software's interaction with microsoft's garbage

This software isn't free. I spent $4300 on my macbook to use this software, and I did so with an explicit advertising from Apple that their software worked with Exchange.

Nobody here is asking about freeware. We all paid premium to run this software.

jorhett wrote:

inked at dolltattoos wrote:

Do this: back up your Mac with Time Machine. Do a fresh OS X install. Configure just Mail. Test. Test it on the same switch as the Exchange server, or as close as possible. Bring back your applications until Mail stops working. The point us to get moving.

Or stand on your broken escalator and continue to rail.

Business folks indeed.

Hello, rude person. I'll do you one better.

1. Brand new macbook, always was Mavericks never was anything else.

2. My own Exchange server.

3. My own IMAP server.

4. Packet sniffers on the links.

5. Mail.app is caffeinated

What happens is that Mavericks stops connecting. It connects to them on startup, gets into IDLE state with both IMAP and ActiveSync, and then... just stops responding.

ActiveSync is (and always has been) unsupported on a Mac and Imap is not Exchange.

Use EWS, it is the only Exchange protocol supported on a Mac.

What is your IT Dept playing at, give them a poke.

Apparently rudeness is rampant here. You didn't read what I wrote. My test lab. I don't have an IT department, I create them. Grow up, and stop being rude.

IMAP is not exchange - duh. Mail.app has problems with both protocols, Exchange worse than IMAP but only marginally so. I was testing both. Over 50% of the time it stops talking to both of them at the same time.

The point was to tell inked to stop blaming users here for what is clearly a problem that only Apple can resolve.

Mail has no issues with Imap, or Exchange, it just has issues with poorly configured Exchange servers and non compliant Imap mail systems. It also suffers from users who let their attitude get in front of their ability.

Good luck.

(No IT Dept, look in the mirror, duh ....)

"Hi. We got this operating system software upgrade for FREE. We aren't sure why one component of it doesn't work with someone else's software. We can't even tell you if the other software is patched or configured correctly, but that doesn't matter and we will have nothing to do with requests to check for those things. Support us - for free. Take time out of your life to diagnose our problems - for free. And, if we don't like what you're saying, don't like the way we think you're saying it, or are just too frustrated and don't know basic computer troubleshooting techniques, we're going to call you names. Oh, and did I mention that we want you to do this for free? Yeah, yeah, we don't care if it works for everyone else and that other people are finding success - all that matters is that YOU help ME for free - and wipe my... nose... when you've finished, because I call myself a business person and I am not to be troubled by trivialities, such as key software components I depend on to help me run my business - heck, I'm not even to be troubled by paying for that software or the support I ex... demand!"

Now, that's an example of rudeness. And you're correct: it is rampant here.

Have a nice day.

inked at dolltattoos wrote:

"Hi. We got this operating system software upgrade for FREE. We aren't sure why one component of it doesn't work with someone else's software. We can't even tell you if the other software is patched or configured correctly, but that doesn't matter and we will have nothing to do with requests to check for those things. Support us - for free.

You do realise that you are not talking to Apple here, just volunteers trying to help.

all that matters is that YOU help ME for free - and wipe my... nose... when you've finished

Curb the attitude

"Hi. We got this operating system software upgrade for FREE."

No, I paid $4300 to get this operating system.

"We aren't sure why one component of it doesn't work with someone else's software."

That is listed as fully supported. That I can open a ticket with Apple at their support desk, because it's an officially supported feature.

"Take time out of your life to diagnose our problems - for free."

I pay for the hardware and I pay for support.

"And, if we don't like what you're saying, don't like the way we think you're saying it, or are just too frustrated and don't know basic computer troubleshooting techniques, we're going to call you names."

The only person calling named here is you. I posted that long explanation of our testing process to ask you to stop telling everyone here how stupid they are and how it is all their fault.

"Yeah, yeah, we don't care if it works for everyone else and that other people are finding success - all that matters is that YOU help ME for free - and wipe my... nose... when you've finished, because I call myself a business person and I am not to be troubled by trivialities, such as key software components I depend on to help me run my business - heck, I'm not even to be troubled by paying for that software or the support I ex... demand!""

Um, you mean the business software that we pay millions of dollars to acquire and for support annually?

What exactly is this rant all about? Here you are making up nonsense as if Apple is a freeware unsupported project, which it absolutely isn't. Our support contracts with Apple have a significant number of zeros on them.

Apple is a commercial for-profit entity selling a product that we are using for a supported purpose, and that product has bugs. Mountain Lion Macbook sitting beside Mavericks Macbook in same lab has zero problems. That means that Mavericks has bugs. Those bugs need to be fixed.

All we have here is you, ranting at people with mindless and INCORRECT statements as if Apple is some nonprofit company working in their spare hours, and we're using the product for unsupported purposes. Dude, get a grip.

The very best thing that could happen is if you take your mindless, incorrect, irrelevant Apple defenses and your insults and attacks on every single person who reports these problems and go away. Or grow up, and acknowledge the actual reality and start providing positive useful information.

I have sent an official request that moderation step in to stop your attacks on people who report problems.

On a more positive note, jorhett, thank you for all the work you've done to clarify this problem for the less sophisticated user such as myself. I have one of the few Macs running in a division of Johns Hopkins, and have been dismayed at the loss of functionality in Mavericks—and the fact that it goes on and on despite OS revisions. I have used Apples and then many Macs in medical settings heavily since 1978, and have seen few major reversals like this. From my less knowedgeable perspective, I have trouble understanding how it could work well in Mountain Lion and iOS, and then be lost for many months in Mavericks. (I think I remember reading that importing prior versions of Mail into the current OS was difficult or impossible.)

I gave up on using Exchange in Mail, and I am limping along with the IMAP server in Mail, but have frequent frustrations and hate using the extra time needed due to inconsistent syncing with my phone. (I just read your advice that quitting the Mac Mail app or having to reboot helps.) I don't want to use Outlook, as I frequently drag emails into folders in iCloud. I returned to IMAP from Exchange again after losing some of my sent emails that were very important. That was a killer and seemed to defy all reason.

I am surprised that this problem is not being noted more prominently on the various Mac websites. I do appreciate your voicing the frustration of many, and the amount of time you have invested in analyzing the problem. It is a shame the way that the relative anonymity of forum posts brings out the hostility in some—but I do believe there are still a majority of good people out there who wish to maintain the higher, more functional means of interacting that our virtual civilization has brought us!

Hope you have a good week.

Hi Convey, very well spoken, and propably expresses what many fells about the Mail issues in recent OS versions. I have also been wondering why Apple/Mac news websites has not adressed this issue or have gone searching for comments from Apple, but it seem we are lef "on our own" as many expresses it. Also a wllplaces thank-you to those who tries to help out here, e.g Brad (who has, amongother things, noticed that using the "Autodiscover Service" function in Mail is not alwasy a great idea, if the Exchange settings (on the server) it not correct.

Csound1 wrote:

Mail has no issues with Imap, or Exchange, it just has issues with poorly configured Exchange servers and non compliant Imap mail systems.

Again with the rudeness, with no explanation that Mountain Lion, Lion, Snow Leopard, etc all work with the same servers no problem. If you want to complain about "poorly configured Exchange servers" then you need to cough up what you consider better configured. I guarantee our staff (many from M$) knows more about Exchange than you ever dreamed.

My test was using the IMAP server (Cyrus) written by the people who wrote all of the IMAP specifications/RFCs. There is nothing more compliant.

So now that all of your claims have been reduced to the nothing they were to start with, would you mind giving up the attack on people who are legitimately upset that Apple is shipping crap? Validated broken in a test lab, not just made up in your mind to justify your baseless attacks on people who paid good money for a broken product.

jorhett wrote:

Csound1 wrote:

Mail has no issues with Imap, or Exchange, it just has issues with poorly configured Exchange servers and non compliant Imap mail systems.

Again with the rudeness, with no explanation that Mountain Lion, Lion, Snow Leopard, etc all work with the same servers no problem.

As does Mavericks for me, there has been no change in performance from Mountain Lion.

Perhaps fixing your installation would be a better use of your time than complaining about it.

I guarantee our staff (many from M$) knows more about Exchange than you ever dreamed.

Apparantly not, mine works.

Csound1 wrote:

As does Mavericks for me, there has been no change in performance from Mountain Lion.

Perhaps fixing your installation would be a better use of your time than complaining about it.

You keep claiming "fix" but I have a test lab that shows that the problem is in Mavericks. If you have a fix, post it. Put up or shut up.

Take a look backk through this thread, solutions have been posted, acted upon and solved the problem for more than one person here.

If you want a fix then you need to do more than complain, reading the thread would be a start.

I concur, no issues here with any of our clients. Though, there still is minor issues with Mac Mail, nothing that is not resolved with a quick restart.

Jorhett, this lab that you have built. Can you provide more details? I apologize in advance for asking redundant questions but I do not have time to sift through the drama above and would rather you copy and past the "meat" of the details from above in a consolidated reply.

Is your test server and client on the same subnet network? If not, please describe.

Please clarify if you are wanting to discuss IMAP or Exchange in these conversations.

What version of Exchange Server? Service Pack? CU?

What version of OS X?