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Win 8.1, iMac Retina 3TB Fusion, Yosemite, Boot Camp fail!

I've got a new iMac Retina with the 3TB Fusion drive on which I wanted to install Win 8.1 using Boot Camp. I have VMWare Fusion installed and running, but figured Boot Camp might be better for my needs.


I read the Boot Camp Assistant instructions and it looked like it would be pretty easy to install Win 8.1. WRONG! 😟


I hooked up a USB HD for the driver download, hooked up the USB Apple DVD drive with the Win 8.1 installer, and started up Boot Camp Assistant.


Assistant downloaded the drivers, created the BOOTCAMP partition, then I got into the Win 8.1 installer. Reached a screeching halt when the installer got to the point of selecting where Win 8.1 would be installed. Got the error message about BOOTCAMP partition not being an NTFS drive.


User uploaded file

Only one button "Format" to click to make the format NTFS. Confirmed I wanted to format, saw a brief spinning wheel, then supposedly formatting was done. Now Drive 1 Partition 4 lost the "BOOTCAMP" name and displayed no name. The "Next" button wouldn't do anything. I was stuck!


So no go on installing Win 8.1! Booting back into Yosemite and opening Disk Utility I see the Boot Camp partition, now named "untitled," identified as an NTSF volume!


I see a number of posts here where by using Terminal it is possible to work around problems with Fusion drives and Boot Camp.


My solution was to start Boot Camp Assistant and select the third option on the first screen to remove the Boot Camp partition. Well at least that worked!!! So I'm back to ground zero!


For now I think I'll just surrender and wait for Apple to figure out how somebody, who doesn't want to dig deep into the bowels of Fusion drives via Terminal, can install Win 8.1 on a 3TB Fusion drive (or any Fusion Drive?).

iMac with Retina 5K display, OS X Yosemite (10.10), 3TB Fusion Drive

Posted on Nov 7, 2014 6:15 AM

Reply
31 replies

Nov 7, 2014 6:22 AM in response to ncmacguy

W 8.1 support what is called EFI boot. The traditional MBR method with Fusion drives is painful to say the least.


If your 'Format' was successful, but Next button was still greyed out, that makes no sense.


If you do not want to play with Terminal, you can restart with the same steps and get to the Format and provide any error messages after the Format or screen shots and it can be figured out what is not working. Unfortunately, you may have to use Terminal to provide some diagnostics information.


Do you have any third-party NTFS software?

Nov 7, 2014 11:28 AM in response to Loner T

Thanks Loner T for your response. I don't have any third party NFTS software. At this point I don't think it is worth the effort to attempt to do anything complicated.


I did take some screen grabs and photos as I went through the install for the fourth or fifth time.


1) Disk Utility before start:


User uploaded file

2) Create the Windows partition:


User uploaded file


3) Initial Windows partitions:


User uploaded file


4) Windows message on why can't install


User uploaded file


5) Hit the "Format" button, and get this confirmation:


User uploaded file


6) Results in partition name getting wiped, and still no active "Next" button:


User uploaded file


7) Still can't install Windows, hit "Show Details" and get this error message.


User uploaded file


8) Another attempt to "Format" results in the same problem. Still can't install. Boot back into Yosemite. Here's what Disk Utility now shows -- an "untitled" NTFS volume:


User uploaded file

Here's the finder window showing the "untitled" volume:


User uploaded file


The NTFS partition is there, but the Win 8.1 installer can't use it. Yes, it makes no sense, but that's what is going on!


Here's info from Terminal on CS I see used here if it helps any:


iMac-Retina:~ victor$ diskutil list

/dev/disk0

#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER

0: GUID_partition_scheme *121.3 GB disk0

1: EFI EFI 209.7 MB disk0s1

2: Apple_CoreStorage 121.0 GB disk0s2

3: Apple_Boot Boot OS X 134.2 MB disk0s3

/dev/disk1

#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER

0: GUID_partition_scheme *3.0 TB disk1

1: EFI EFI 209.7 MB disk1s1

2: Apple_CoreStorage 2.8 TB disk1s2

3: Apple_Boot Recovery HD 650.0 MB disk1s3

4: Microsoft Basic Data 198.9 GB disk1s4

/dev/disk2

#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER

0: Apple_HFS iMac Retina HD *2.9 TB disk2

Logical Volume on disk0s2, disk1s2

5A16E295-8476-4500-A588-7DE44FE207B4

Unencrypted Fusion Drive

iMac-Retina:~ victor$ diskutil cs list

CoreStorage logical volume groups (1 found)

|

+-- Logical Volume Group 26BFCEFD-67DB-4AAE-BA18-4CC5EC205697

=========================================================

Name: Macintosh HD

Status: Online

Size: 2921855311872 B (2.9 TB)

Free Space: 114688 B (114.7 KB)

|

+-< Physical Volume 88BDD48F-B9A0-42F9-A05A-26B828B211C9

| ----------------------------------------------------

| Index: 0

| Disk: disk0s2

| Status: Online

| Size: 120988852224 B (121.0 GB)

|

+-< Physical Volume BEDB41F3-F2BC-4F31-B08F-A4B3E476A153

| ----------------------------------------------------

| Index: 1

| Disk: disk1s2

| Status: Online

| Size: 2800866459648 B (2.8 TB)

|

+-> Logical Volume Family 536F7EC4-2FC3-4878-989E-233DF25AE1E7

----------------------------------------------------------

Encryption Status: Unlocked

Encryption Type: None

Conversion Status: NoConversion

Conversion Direction: -none-

Has Encrypted Extents: No

Fully Secure: No

Passphrase Required: No

|

+-> Logical Volume 5A16E295-8476-4500-A588-7DE44FE207B4

---------------------------------------------------

Disk: disk2

Status: Online

Size (Total): 2915999940608 B (2.9 TB)

Conversion Progress: -none-

Revertible: No

LV Name: iMac Retina HD

Volume Name: iMac Retina HD

Content Hint: Apple_HFS

iMac-Retina:~ victor$


Unless you see a simple solution, it's not worth the hassle at this point for me.


Thanks for your interest.

Nov 7, 2014 5:12 PM in response to Loner T

Here's the output from sudo disk /dev/disk1:


iMac-Retina:~ victor$ sudo fdisk /dev/disk1


WARNING: Improper use of the sudo command could lead to data loss

or the deletion of important system files. Please double-check your

typing when using sudo. Type "man sudo" for more information.


To proceed, enter your password, or type Ctrl-C to abort.


Password:

Disk: /dev/disk1 geometry: 97451/255/63 [1565565872 sectors]

Signature: 0xAA55

Starting Ending

#: id cyl hd sec - cyl hd sec [ start - size]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

1: EE 1023 254 63 - 1023 254 63 [ 1 - 4294967294] <Unknown ID>

2: 00 0 0 0 - 0 0 0 [ 0 - 0] unused

3: 00 0 0 0 - 0 0 0 [ 0 - 0] unused

4: 00 0 0 0 - 0 0 0 [ 0 - 0] unused

iMac-Retina:~ victor$


You are talking "gibberish," but I can usually follow instructions. I found gdisk-0.8.10.pkg on SourceForge.net which I hope is the one I need to install gdisk for your "very simple solution."


Thanks again!

Nov 7, 2014 6:25 PM in response to ncmacguy

Apologies for the 'gibberish'. The tool is called GPT Fdisk, but the binary is Gdisk. You found the correct one.


You have two issues.


On an iMac with a 3TB Fusion drive, the traditional method of Windows installation breaks down. Apple Engineers hacked a solution on top of a hack. The base hack is a Hybrid MBR and then hack on top is creating a partition between 0-2TB when the HDD is larger than 2TB.


The Traditional method of installing Bootcamp/Windows uses what is called a Hybrid MBR. This MBR makes a disk look like a "legacy" MBR disk, but it has a limitation, because of the numbers used, that it cannot address a partition larger than 2TB. If you notice your Microsoft Basic Data partition (disk1s4) is after the 2.8TB (disk1s2) partition. The size number in you Fdisk output is 4294967294 sectors (each sector is 512 bytes) which when converted to GB is 4294967294 / ( 2 * 1024 * 1024 ) = 2048 GB = 2TB. No matter how hard BCA tries, the Hybrid MBR entry will never be created and it will keep failing. This is reflected in your repeated attempts which all fail.


Your first option is to delete the current partition via Bootcamp Assistant (do not use Disk Utility), and try to recreate it to see if it will create it within 0-2TB on the HDD.


You second option is to use W8.1 EFI install which does not use the Hybrid MBR approach and does not run into the 2TB limit. There is a catch to this one. M$ EFI installer needs a FAT partition called the MSR and it needs to be within the 2TB limit, it is similar to the Apple EFI partition (but not the same).


My recommendation is to use the first option, because it requires less manipulation of disks and volumes. Try it at least once.


The second option requires carving a partition at the beginning which will get Windows and MSR both, but will be a GPT partition and can be expanded shrunk as you please. The traditional method does not allow changing the size of the Windows partition either because it does not sync the GPT and MBR entries and is not designed to do that.


If this is the recent iMac Retina5K, my understanding is that Apple Tech Support can login and run some terminal diskutil CS commands to fix the issue.

Nov 8, 2014 11:12 AM in response to Loner T

Thanks for the explanation which makes the "gibberish" a little clearer. Yes I have the iMac Retina with the 3TB Fusion drive.


I have used Boot Camp Assistant to create and install the BOOTCAMP partition on my drive at least three times, and always run into the same problem with the Win 8.1 installer being unable to use the partition for installation. After exiting the Win Installer, Disk Utility has always shown the partition as an NTFS partition. Boot Camp Assistant has always been able to reliably remove the partition.


I have schedule a call from Apple Tech Support for Monday morning, so will find out if they can use their magic to fix the issue.


I certainly appreciate all your assistance and valuable information!

Nov 8, 2014 12:57 PM in response to ncmacguy

This is the "magic" they will use. This command was designed for such use. This is undocumented in Apple Developer pages (like many other CoreStorage commands are as well). Can I request that you capture what Tech Support does using the Unix script command (see details under man script in OS X Terminal)?


The pvUUID used is the HDD in Fusion drive (the 3Tb /dev/disk1).


part1* is the SSD

part2* is the designated BOOTCAMP volume

part3* is the remainder of 3TB which will go back to your original Fusion drive.


Notice the highlighted part in the help section.


You can also see this thread - windows 8 does not recognise Macintosh HD, No drive Letter and read the bits in the later part starting with Christopher Murphy 's comments.


diskutil cs resizeStack

Usage: diskutil coreStorage resizeStack

lvUUID|MountPoint|DiskIdentifier|DeviceNode [pvUUID] size

[part1Format part1Name part1Size part2Format part2Name part2Size

part3Format part3Name part3Size ...]

Resize both a logical volume and one of its underlying physical volumes in a

single operation. A single physical volume is always chosen for the underlying

shrink or grow, even if the logical volume's logical volume group is backed by

more than one physical volume. If you do not specify a particular physical

volume, then one is chosen for you. Note that if this is a grow operation,

this verb is limited by the physical volume's partition's room to grow.

Specifying zero as the size asks for an "automatic" grow-to-fill operation.

If this is a shrink operation, you can optionally request that new partitions

be created in the newly-formed free space gap in the partition map.

Again, note that this only resizes one of the underlying physical volumes; if

you need more sophistication in managing your topology, you should use the

separate physical and logical volume resize verbs.

Example: diskutil coreStorage resizeStack

11111111-2222-3333-4444-555555555555 10g JHFS+ New 1g

Nov 10, 2014 7:50 AM in response to Loner T

Talked to Apple Support this morning on my issue. The first level just had me go through the Boot Camp Assistant process creating the BOOTCAMP partition through the failure of the Win 8.1 installer to allow installation on the partition.


Second level support had me delete the BOOTCAMP partition that had been created using Disk Utility, then create a new MS-DOS (Fat) partition using Disk Utility. (Everything I had read previously warned to ONLY USE Boot Camp Assistant to delete or create that single second partition for Boot Camp.) That took some time, but the new partition was created successfully.


Then started up from the DVD Win 8.1 installation disk to run the installer again. Again got to the window to specify the partition to install Win on, and again failed.


This support person was not familiar with the diskutil cs resizeStack terminal command, and I provided the reference to the Support thread you had provided. I believe he was hesitant to get into terminal for fear of rendering the Fusion drive unusable.


My case has been referred to Boot Camp engineers for action. Will see what results.


In the meantime I'll keep using VMWare Fusion for running the one Windows-only app I really need to use.

Nov 10, 2014 8:42 AM in response to ncmacguy

This support person was not familiar with the diskutil cs resizeStack terminal command, and I provided the reference to the Support thread you had provided. I believe he was hesitant to get into terminal for fear of rendering the Fusion drive unusable.


My case has been referred to Boot Camp engineers for action. Will see what results.

I am not surprised that the support person was unfamiliar. Apple does not document these on the diskutil manage on their Developer website. I have requested, via support Feedback, for such documentation. Let us see what happens.


Please let me know how it goes when the BC engineers contact you.


Thanks for posting back.

Jan 14, 2015 5:48 PM in response to ncmacguy

I am having the same issue on a 27" iMac bought end of 2013. 3tb fusion drive. I have tried many times (5 at least) following all the directions. Used BootCamp assistant to create the partition (not Disk Utility, but really, why should it matter). Downloaded the files, etc. Tried with both a DVD of the Windows OS (8.1) and a USB stick (16gb). Each time I get the same yellow warning saying that Windows cannot be installed on this partition as it is not NTFS within the Windows setup. If I then try to format it in the Windows setup....it completely breaks the partition and is not recoverable in OSX. What a joke. What is worse, now each time my bootcamp attempt fails, I get a message that there is no bootable device meaning I have now lost my installation of OSX too. I then need to reboot using Cmd-R, delete the top logical partition using Terminal, open Disk Utility and let it repair the partition (which completely erases the drive) and then reinstall OSX. What a JOKE!!! Now if i had all my kids pictures and videos on the drive I would be suing someone. Luckily I am smarter than that (not much smarter though) and back those up. I am a software engineer with over 10 years experience so am not computer illiterate at least. I am seriously considering going back to windows. So easy...I can actually open my machine and put 2 or 3 drives in it, install the OS on one, my docs, pictures, videos on the other and back it all up on a third...never an issue. What the **** was I thinking spending $2600 on this piece of sh*t??? Don't even ask me about TimeMachine....I have absolutely no trust or confidence that it will actually have my files available when needed...who has gotten the message "Your backups are invalid and need to be recreated" ??? OMG...what a JOKE!!!


Had to mention that i just plopped down $50 (a deal) for Parallels desktop which is now useless as I can't run Windows on my $2600 pc.

Jan 14, 2015 6:46 PM in response to mlacy1358

mlacy1358 wrote:


I am having the same issue on a 27" iMac bought end of 2013. 3tb fusion drive. I have tried many times (5 at least) following all the directions. Used BootCamp assistant to create the partition (not Disk Utility, but really, why should it matter).

There is an explanation about MBRs, GPT and Hybrid MBRs on this discussion which may help clarify why DU cannot be used. DU does not create a Hybrid MBR, but BCA does.

Downloaded the files, etc. Tried with both a DVD of the Windows OS (8.1) and a USB stick (16gb). Each time I get the same yellow warning saying that Windows cannot be installed on this partition as it is not NTFS within the Windows setup. If I then try to format it in the Windows setup....it completely breaks the partition and is not recoverable in OSX. What a joke.

OS X does not have a native read-write NTFS driver (but it does have a read-only NTFS driver). It uses the Windows Installer's format capability by creating a FAT32 partition, and a Hybrid MBR (to work around the 2TB legacy BIOS limitation), which is then formatted. If you pick the incorrect partition to format, it will cause problems for OS X and Windows, both.

What is worse, now each time my bootcamp attempt fails, I get a message that there is no bootable device meaning I have now lost my installation of OSX too. I then need to reboot using Cmd-R, delete the top logical partition using Terminal, open Disk Utility and let it repair the partition (which completely erases the drive) and then reinstall OSX. What a JOKE!!!

Most likely because the incorrect partition was formatted. Is it possible that you are picking a partition other than one labeled BOOTCAMP for formatting?

Now if i had all my kids pictures and videos on the drive I would be suing someone. Luckily I am smarter than that (not much smarter though) and back those up.

The more critical/valuable your data, the more backup copies one should keep.

I am a software engineer with over 10 years experience so am not computer illiterate at least. I am seriously considering going back to windows.

If the decision to buy a Mac was made purely to run Windows, it is worth reconsidering such a decision. Either OS has its quirks and foibles.

So easy...I can actually open my machine and put 2 or 3 drives in it, install the OS on one, my docs, pictures, videos on the other and back it all up on a third...never an issue. What the **** was I thinking spending $2600 on this piece of sh*t???

You can do the same with a Tower model MacPro which has 4 SATA bays. You could have saved yourself hours and heartburn, if you had posted earlier and the ASC could have assisted with your specific issues. If you still want to try (perhaps tomorrow), please post a new discussion thread.

Don't even ask me about TimeMachine....I have absolutely no trust or confidence that it will actually have my files available when needed...who has gotten the message "Your backups are invalid and need to be recreated" ??? OMG...what a JOKE!!!

It is always good to have more than one backup, preferably using two different tools, for the safety of your data and your sanity. Disks fail, backup software can have bugs, accidental deletions happen. TM has many useful features, including a built-in scheduler, snapshots, etc. Windows also has very similar features.


Had to mention that i just plopped down $50 (a deal) for Parallels desktop which is now useless as I can't run Windows on my $2600 pc.

If it helps alleviate any of your angst, you can try installing W8.1 using EFI mode, and skip some of the Bootcamp heartburn, but you will still need BC drivers to support Apple hardware.

Jan 14, 2015 6:59 PM in response to Loner T

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my diatribe. I absolutely did choose the partition labeled BOOTCAMP each time. During the Bootcamp assistant process I changed the slider from the default 20gb for Windows to 252gb. In the resulting Windows setup, not only was the partition labeled BOOTCAMP, but I also verified the size of the partition (which was slightly less than 252gb) so I am sure that was it.


I was actually thinking of breaking the link between the SSD and the 3tb drive then installing OSX and apps on the SSD and my docs, pics, videos, music on the 3tb drive. That way I can reinstall the OS at will without ever touching the hard drive my docs are on (like I used to do on windows). Not sure if I can point the documents, pictures, videos and music folders at the folders on the 3tb drive though (this is very easy in Windows).

Win 8.1, iMac Retina 3TB Fusion, Yosemite, Boot Camp fail!

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