GPS data not available to apps after iOS 8.3 update

There is such a simple solution for us all. When we find out that the latest updatye doesn't work with our device or software............. WHY FORCE US TO KEEP IT ON OUR MACHINE? My old iPhones can't even be firmware updated. and that is ok! Even if I cannot use the most recent apps. Do I have to? No. At least my old phones and also my old Macs work the way the used to.

So Please, Big Apple, let us downgrade to the firmware version where our precious soft - and or hardware works. Is this really asked too much?

Well, I have learned my lesson. I don't blame Apple. I blame myself for trusting Apple to "just work". Do I think they are flawless? No. I understand that this only affects a very small community. I do not expect Apple to cater to us "one percenters". But I will hold the argument that lots of people use iPads for "non-prescribed" functions. All one has to do is look in the App Store. There are businesses using credit card reader software, medical offices using them for patient documentation, etc, etc.

The fact that this happened has made me a better pilot. First thing, I got to pull out the old paper charts and fly off of antique VOR navigation. (Old school) I got in some good practice that I may have not have otherwise gotten. Secondly, it made me rethink about the false faith that I had in Apple products in the cockpit (my own stupidity). Lastly, it made me realize that Apple's niche of "it just works" is probably not as true as Id like it to be.

i am dissapointed in this aviation/Apple/GPS fubar occurring. I understand that Apple can not cater to the small minority. If it's Apple Watch vs. blue tooth navigation; Apole Watch will win every time.

Do I plan on dropping all Apple products for other tablet brands? No. I think they ALL have inherent problems also. I have just now thrown Apple into that same basket. However, I do plan on purchasing an Aviation GPS stand-alone unit that DOES have pilots interests in mind. Will it also have problems? Possibly. But seeing that the pilot community IS their customer base, I would (maybe falsely) expect better response times/fixes.

WIll Apple be affected by my decision. Absolutely not. Will they care if I stop using their products for aviation? No.

Do I care that Apple's low priority placed on this issue effects me as a pilot. You can bet the bank on that.

There isn't really any "blame" here. Someone at Apple changed some code regarding Bluetooth and as an unexpected consequence it affected some 3rd party devices and software that are used by a very small percentage (nowhere near the medical and POS users). After it was released they were notified by the 3rd party companies and they worked on a fix. That is it. They left a previous version signed for much longer than they usually do and there is the public beta. Hopefully in the future the companies impacted will be much more diligent in testing software as it is released and this can be avoided. And probably on June 8th 8.4 will be released.

It won't make you feel any better but this has happened before with all computers, phones, small electronics, etc. And it will again I'm sure. I do agree with you on going to a single vendor solution, learned that many moons ago while I was working.

You are right to hedge though about single vendor solutions. I doubt that Dual or Bad Elf do in house programming. If a new product, or upgrade, went awry they are dependent on the software development firm to provide a solution. If they are unable to then it can be a long wait. And yep, been there done that.

P.S, Call AppleCare and ask to be transferred to Customer Service and speak to them. It is the second best way to get your point across, we are just users like yourself. Before you call think about what you would like them to do to compensate you fro your troubles.

I have to agree with most of what you've written firemediclex. It makes me wonder whether, after this crap dies down and everything is working again that I'll remember why I bought the iPad in the first place, and forgive. The ipad running OzRunways boosted my situational awareness and allowed me to navigate with accuracy and convenience spending most of my (VFR) time looking out the window and not fooling with unwieldy paper maps in a small cockpit. The ipad as an EFB has changed the way most pilots fly - even airlines. It is a great boost to aviation safety and is vastly superior to the dedicated GPS that cost from $2,500 upwards. While I may eventually forgive Apple for being just like all the other OpSys producers and press on with it, I'll never forget and will go back to the approach to software updates that I've followed for decades.If I ever buy another iPad I certainly won't buy one that is not WiFi + Cell! My new aircraft with the Garmin G3X Touch will provide the full redundancy I need regarding electronic navigation. And then I still always carry a paper flight plan that would allow me to get somewhere with the compass and my watch and a good look around outside.

I've had work experience with IBM, Honeywell, Control Data,MS, DEC, and numerous big system suppliers including SAP and have followed the industry standard practices advocated by rccharles. Funnily enough, it was Microsoft that sucked me into a lazy "trust them to get it right" attitude. For years I've been running Windows 7 without a single blip. I actually allow the system to automatically download the updates and install them, something I would never have once done. I (subconsciously) thought if MS can get it right, Apple should never be a problem. But then my life was never likely to depend on anything that came from my laptop.

While flying is my passion, I am not a commercial pilot and do not fly every day. By the time I stumbled on the bug and worked out that it was not a Dual or Ozrunways issue but an iOS "undocumented feature" it was too late to roll back to 8.2 or I would have done that in a heartbeat. I can understand Apple not wanting to leave prior versions up for long but it is not a good look when they manufacture a monumental stuff up and take ages to admit it was their error and offered no solution other than "don't hold your breath - we'll get back to you, eventually". If they allow roll back for two weeks, why not a month - particularly when they know there were serious issues with 8.3 in addition to the Bluetooth problem? Why not let customers know there is an issue with 8.3 and *recommend* and facilitate rollback to 8.2?

Claiming that Apple didn't invent the iPad to be an EFB is a urine weak. It invented a device that could accept, via bluetooth, GPS data and pass it to Apps that requested such data. It was designed to provide, on request the best GPS data available to it. In the case of the no-cell iPads, that was always going to be an external source. I doubt Apple invented the iPad with one-hundredth of its current applications in mind. So what

deggie: "If you think this is the first time (or last) that this has happened you are mistaken" .

I'm reliably informed that it is the fourth time this feature has been damaged.Unfortunately, I didn't know Apple was that bad at quality control when I bought the iPad but, courtesy of this stuff up I am now ell aware of this feature and have repented from my laissez faire attitude.

Downunder, the iPad is accepted by aviation authorities as an EFB and saves us buying scores of maps and carrying around several kilograms of airport guides and aviation law and regulation. It is not, however, accepted as a legal primary means of navigation by GPS. I imagine the situation with the FAA Is similar. For all that 20th Century attitude, it *is* the primary means of navigation for almost all non-commercial pilots with paper maps and compass a backup.

"There isn't really any "blame" here. Someone at Apple changed some code regarding Bluetooth".

True, we all make mistakes. Any concept of blame is around not admitting the mistake promptly and providing a quick and safe way around the problem either a bug fix release or a rollback the latter being immediately available but not promoted. This will have damaged Dual's and Bad Elf's business markedly. If they survive, you can bet they will be very circumspect about every future Apple tweak of iOS.

Hi PilotDon,

You seem to be the knowledge on this topic. I have only just bought a Garmin Glo and discovered this communications issue.

Im using Sky Demon which seems to get a lock every minute of so then dies. Unfortunately I upgrade ios before i concidered

using my ipad mini as a gps device. Anyway, I admit I have not read everyones contributions to this forum as there are so many.

Have apple released a date where this will be fix or has anyone found any temp solutions ?

Kind Regards

Paul

The Garmin GLO has a firmware update v2.70 that I believe corrects the issue even though it's not mentioned in the changelog linked below.

http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=5811

It IS however mentioned in the Garmin blog:

http://garmin.blogs.com/my_weblog/2015/04/garmin-glo-connectivity-with-select-io s-devices.html#.VWhYW2ff-RN

It has become pretty obvious you have little background in computing and software development.

Apple had no idea when they released the iPad that the Personal Area Network (PAN) protocol in Bluetooth could be used for GPS and it was not their intent in implementing it. 3rd party vendors discovered it and used it to sell a device that would use this workaround to offer a lower priced device to compete with single unit models. But Apple was in no way involved or a partner to this. This has happened since hobby computers have been around but what one has to wary of the builder of the principal device can make a change that will obsolete the 3rd party device. I had a whole closet full of peripherals that this happened to when I was working using Xenix, Linux and Windows machines. That is no weak it is a fact of life.

As just pointed out here again, and they are just one model, Garmin very quickly did a firmware update and their system works. Why couldn't Dual or Bad Elf do that? The change that Apple made within the constraints of PAN may have been very short and designed to make something else work. It also may have involved previous code that through a mistake did not conform to BT standards and they corrected it. There is also software that a slight tweak "fixed" the issue until the release of 8.4.

It is not a quality control issue on Apple's part just like it wouldn't be for Windows, Linux, Android, etc. There is no way any of these companies can check the impact of every possible combination of Bluetooth device out there every time they make a change. So they do beta testing. And in this instance out of the 1 million people that signed up for the public beta not one of them was a pilot using a Dual or Bad Elf product/software. Otherwise it would have been reported.

Again, while Apple made the change they do not have the ability to test every device. This is not bad quality control it is reality. Been this way for a long time. So what can 3rd party companies do? Make sure they are part of the developer program and have their personnel test any changes to the iOS (or new equipment) that are released. This sounds to me like these two vendors thought their software developers were doing this and vice versa.

Best way to avoid this? Pay the premium price for a single vendor solution and hope they have a close working relationship with their software vendor.

IM not sure how to take this, but Bad Elf states in their update article on this issue ...., "Unfortunately, in this case there is little we can do from our side to resolve the issue." Ouch! That's quite a statement!!!!

http://bad-elf.com/blogs/bad-elf/26456196-still-in-holding-pattern-on-ios-8-3-gp s-bug

MMore comments from Bad Elf staff on the issue.....

.

Pierre/Dan/Aerosteve — yes, the 2.70 GLO firmware brings their unit up to the same level as our GPS Pro+ and GPS for Lightning dongle. Now, these 3 units are unaffected by the iOS 8.3 bug when used with newer Lightning-based iOS devices. However, NONE of them work with 30-pin iOS devices running iOS 8.3. This was not a new/recent GLO firmware release from Garmin — it was released on Feb 25, 2015.

But, it’s a good question: can we do a firmware upgrade for our 30-pin dongle (-1000) and Bad Elf GPS Pro (-2200) to at least enable them to work with Lightning-based iOS devices running iOS 8.3?

1. For the 30-pin dongle, the answer is simple: NO, because 30-pin accessories cannot use the newer (working) accessory protocol. Only Apple can fix the issue with the older protocol and restore functionality to 30-pin devices/accessories.

2. For the GPS Pro (-2200), we CAN do a firmware update, but we have to complete the MFi product review process for this new configuration. This takes 4-5 weeks minimum and multiple 3rd parties are involved. We’ve already started the process, but are hopeful Apple will release a fix before this new firmware update is ready.

We are very frustrated with this issue, and are moving forward on several paths to work around it. I hope to have some positive updates later this week.

Source...

http://bad-elf.com/blogs/bad-elf/18013536-alert-compatibility-issue-with-apple-i os-8-3-and-external-gps-receivers

the above comments are from bad elf staff at the link provided, and are not my own.

HI Finchester 122,

To save you digging out my earlier post, I had exactly the same issue with my GLO which I was using with Skydemon on my iPad Mini. However, updating to software version 2.7 fixed it, even though Garmin told me that it wouldn't. HOWEVER, when I first connected my GLO to my PC it was not recognised and it was only through a kind sole on this forum that I found that the solution was to buy a VERY SHORT lead. About 6 inches long and cost around £3 from Amazon. Don't ask me why this fixed the problem, but it did. My PC immediately recognised my GLO and I was able to download the software and update it from the Garmin website. So two problems in one, but there is an answer. I should perhaps point out, however, that I have a relatively new iPad Mini and I am not sure that this software fix works with older iOS devices. Good Luck.

Aerosteve

Thank you all so much, I am so impressed how helpful you have all been very impressed. I think its up and running a well test it properly tomorrow on my drive in to the airfield.

Thank you all so much.

Paul

It was not meant to be a swipe it was a statement of fact. I can assume then you have never done any programming?

1. Yes, your Dual worked with 8.2

2. Yes, your Dual no longer worked in 8.3

3. Apple didn't plead guilty to anything, they responded to users who said it didn't work anymore and said we will look into it. Odd that they didn't first hear this from Dual or Bad Elf

4. (You have 3 twice) Apple mentioned the change in beta release 2, not 3.

5.Yes, probably on the 8th of June Apple will release 8.4 and hopefully it will correct your issue as well as the recent text problem.

My only problem with what you are arguing is you seem to think there is some kind of switch a programmer set wrong, like flaps for landing, her coprogrammer didn't catch it and a grievous error was made that singled you out. It doesn't work that way in software.

The way it is supposed to work is that a unit of programmers was tasked to make changes in iOS to Bluetooth probably for the Watch but it could also have been to work on AirDrop issues. This involves several APIs and lots of line of code. This group set up their task at the Alpha level and probably worked with people in the iOS and Watch sections to test the new code. Once they have a semi-stable build of the iOS they send it to developers. What is supposed to happen at that point is the developer tests each build and if they find a problem, say like their software and the Dual doesn't work anymore, they login and submit a problem report. This report should have as much detail as possible and should include which build it happened with, whether it happened with a previous build, what all was running at the time, any workarounds tried, etc. This goes to the programming group responsible for this area and they then look at the changes that were made and try to find out what change specifically could have caused the issue and change the code involved. If it involves more than one unit then they will coordinate with other units. They will then either contact the person who submitted the bug report for more information or they will make changes in the next build. When that build is released the person who submitted the bug will get an email saying the problem has been addressed and ask the person to test the build and either confirm it, say it still doesn't work, say it works but there are still some issues to be resolved, etc.

That is the way it is supposed to work. There is not way that ANY company, not Apple, not Google, not Red Hat, not IBM, could possibly test all of the software/hardware that runs on their OS. The only way to avoid your issue is to have the 3rd party developers and hardware makers participate which they are asked to do. It is patently obvious from the letter posted here from the official at Bad Elf that this did not occur. Props to them for saying they are going to take steps internally saying they are going to try to make sure this does not happen in the future. I still think that their hardware engineers thought the software development people were doing this and vice versa. So no one did it.

What amazes me is how three MAJOR companies in the aviation/GPS industry ALL DROPPED the ball at the same time. How in the world did Dual, Garmin, and Bad Elf ALL manage to drop the ball at the EXACT SAME TIME.

Something doesnt add up.

Weird indeed and very costly for future business. I guess we all learned something from this fiasco.

It has not stopped me, personally, navigating by iPad because I have two, one with and one without Cell/GPS. I also have an iPhone that runs my Nav App even if the screen size is sub-optimal it will get you to where you need to go, especially home! I Also carry a paper version of the plan with headings and distances, ETI, etc. I have on more than one occasion had to fall back on that and was very glad I had it to fall back on. And if it all goes really bad, there is always the EPIRB and a SPOT tracker on board. Belts, braces and more. The religion of aviation safety - redundant backup.

deggie, we are a lot closer in our thinking than some observers might guess. I would like to thank you for significantly expanding our understanding of the processes at Apple. I readily accept that the best laid plans of mice, men and Apple can go awry. The test is how you recover from these flums. The only message I'd leave with Apple is that they need to be more forthcoming if something has gone wrong and leave an avenue for a quick fix. Two months without my bluetooth navigator is annoying only because I see it was unnecessary. If I had discovered the problem existed before I loaded 8.3 then I would still be on 8.2 and wondering what all the fuss is about. Or I could, with Apple's grace have been allowed the retrograde roll back. In the circumstances regrettably, neither were available.

Although I won't be rushing to load new versions in future I am sorely tempted to make an exception with 8.4 if only for my iPad Mini that has no cell/gps.