Digitize Super 8 film to 18fps or 25/30fps?

@Matti Haveri

I'll check the rest of your post later, but this is how I got 18 fps ProRes 422.

I dragged an 18fps Motion JPEG A file into the browser. If you enable the Video Frame Rate you can see what the frame rate is. In my case it's 18. I can also convert an 18 fps Motion JPEG A file with the Finder by right-clicking the file and then Services > Encode Selected Video Files. Enter your settings and go! (Be sure to wait for the file size to grow. There is no "Done" notification of any type.)

While it's 18 fps in the browser, it will be converted to something else in the project's timeline. You could use the Automatic Retime function to eliminate adding frames when you copy the clip to the timeline, but then it will run too fast.

I don't know why they're having trouble exporting at 18 fps. It's just a datum in the metadata in the video file. You could make it 3 if you want. I got mine transferred that way (at 18) and it came out as desired. And with no blended frames.

Here's a snapshot of the QT7 Pro Info pane of a movie I converted using the Finder method (High Sierra OS). I believe you can also export clips directly from the browser. What you can't do is make a project at 18 fps. But it has nothing to do with ProRes 422. Maybe the HQ version is limited in that way. IDK. BTW, you need the HQ version for Super 8? What type of film was it, if you don't mind me asking. Kodachrome? Ektachrome? Other?

FCP can't output 18fps so it's going to be doing rate conform in the timeline. I think the Cintel will do the best job of this. With that in mind I'd agreed that have the telecine output 25fps would probably be the best option.

Greetings,

I had some Super 8 transfers done a while back, so maybe my experience will be of some help.

My files are 1440 x1080. These are the settings to use in FCP for that: Video: Custom. Resolution: 1440 x 1080

Ok, now on to frame-rate conversions:

First of all, if they transfer at 25 fps instead of the 18 fps it was probably shot at, will it run that much faster? I don't think you want that! Be certain what they do at this step. Also, don't forget that once you start a project in FCP you can't change its frame rate. You can change the frame rate only on an empty project.

Second: What type of content is on your film? If it's animation you need to be more careful. If there's a lot of motion or panning, that can also require some extra care.

I had mine transferred at 18 fps and first had only iMovie 9.x (yuck) to work with.

The first film I worked on had a lot of motion. Shots were taken from subways and cars. (IIRC, iMovie 9 only has 24, 25, and 29.97 fps.) I first tried it at 24 fps, but noticed in some scenes a rather disconcerting stuttering! I strongly recommend against 18->24 for this reason for anything with significant movement. I assume going to 25 fps would be just as bad -- well, I'm not sure how that would work. You could double every 24th frame! I could try it and see what it does. Anyway, I redid the whole film at 30 fps and got pretty good results. I was happy with it. Sometimes you can tell the difference even in just normal scenes. I have some Star Trek TOS episodes - some at 23.98 or 24, and others at 29.97. The 29.97 fps ones have every fourth frame doubled. It works, but when you compare them it's smoother in the 23.98/24 episodes. Definitely more relaxed. But that doesn't involve 18 fps. Anyway . . .

Animation can be a problem. The movie I'm working on now is stop-motion animation. In some cases I had to change things so that each movement of an object would be the same number of frames. These cases involved rapid movement and somehow a pure 3 frames to 5 frames change doesn't always look so good!

AFAIK, 18 fps on computers is fine. Looks smooth to me -- on QuickTime 7 Pro, anyway. It also tells you what rate it's being played at.

I don't know if YouTube can do 18 fps, but Final Cut doesn't offer that anyway.

Anyway, assuming the footage was shot at 18 fps (I once used a Super 8 camera that ran at 24 fps!) you need to be certain about any frame rate conversion they do. The frame rate is in the metadata, of course. And if they do an exact frame-for-frame scan, and just put down 25 instead of 18, things will look speeded-up!

The Compressor user guide has some info on changing frame rates that you might find helpful.

Let me know if you have any questions.

it should not accelerate at all. If a technique like pull down is used it creates an additional frame every 3 that is blended and the timeline is kept the same. This is what you want otherwise there is on added value to this process you convert them at 18 fps and then manage yourself...

Final Cut will convert 18 fps to 25 fps if you wish. I put an 18 fps clip in a 25 fps project. Here's what happened:

1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2

grouped it's 4 3 4 3 3 4 4 3

Each 1 is a single frame. Each 2 a single frame and a duplicate of it. In a scene without any fast motion or panning it looked more or less okay.

I don't know what they will do if they convert if from 18 fps to some other rate for you. I'd make sure to find out what they will do before they do it!!! One thing you can do is send them a short sample and see what comes back.

What is Final Cut's "Automatic Speed"? You can't convert frame rates without dropping or duping frames. Maybe your clips are being truncated?

@Interceptor121:

My point was to exercise caution because of the word you yourself used: "should". You don't want them to have done an expensive transfer and then have it come back different from what you expected! I myself chose 18 fps and would do so again. Final Cut can do the telecine, dropdown, or WTFIC bit. You need to make sure first that they know what you want them to do or how it should come out.

I don't understand your second sentence.

@Interceptor121

18 -> 24 fps will produce uniform stuttering.

18 -> 25 fps will produce slightly less severe stuttering, but it will be a little non-uniform.

If the resulting stuttering is unacceptable, then 18 -> 29.97 or 30 fps is the way to go. Or edit with QuickTime at 18 fps. Can the new one (QT X) do it?

If they do

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-two_pull_down

then the OP won't be able to edit on a frame-by-frame basis.

The OP really needs to be sure what they will do, and if they do a frame-rate change, how will they do it?

Given the time and expense involved, and whether the transfer company is willing to do a redo if it comes out not to the OP's liking, it is very important to be sure they will do what is wanted.

Yes. I gave an example in my previous post.

Seems to me that 18 fps is your best bet.

I have a 24 fps movie that was originally 18 fps. I converted to 29.97 fps. It looks fine. The cadence is

1 2 2 1 2 2 1 2 2 . . . Now, I could have lucked out with the alignment.

18 -> 25 -> 30 gives

1 2 2 1 2 1 3 1 1 3 1 2 1 2 2 1 1 3

Yeah, it looks a little bit jerky. This is not of an animation. It is me picking up a ball from the street.

So get it at 18 fps and do the conversions yourself. Again, send a small sample and see how it comes back.

So the "Automatic Speed" is speeding up the clip. Is this in the user guide somewhere? I couldn't find it. What version do you have?

Are you doing animation? fast motion? regular movie?

I do not agree that 25 will stutter less because any tv set can play 24 fps this is not broadcast

If they just duplicate frames you decompose 18 and you get 2x3x3 24 is 2x2x2x3 25 is 2x5 and 30 is 2x3x5

25 will stutter the most between 24 and 30 you need to add more frames with 30 and therefore will stutter more than 24

So either keep 18 or go to 24 considering they are not applying any blending I would keep it to 18 and then conform myself

Stuttering comes from how uneven the resulting pattern is, not how many frames you have to add. Starting with 18 fps I made a movie at 24 fps. The pattern was 1 1 2. There was really bad stuttering in certain scenes. I redid the move at 30 fps and it was much better. The pattern is 2 2 1, which is more uniform than 1 1 2. If you change 30 fps to 60 fps you will see no stuttering. The pattern will be 2 2 2 2 2 . . .

Regardless, we agree that the OP should get the transfer done at 18 fps. Most important is to be sure the result will be what the OP wants.