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Matti Haveri Author

Level 6

16,925 points

Digitize Super 8 film to 18fps or 25/30fps?

I am finally going to digitize old Super 8 films.

The service uses Rank Cintel 4K scanner which scans frame by frame to ProRes 422HQ 1080p format (I guess they add black borders to the 5.79 x 4.01 mm Super 8 frame to fit it to the 1920x1080 ratio). That costs somewhat and I'd like to do it properly (I do know the input quality is very low but I'd like to squeeze every possible detail out of those old films).

Frame rate is one thing I am still concerned about. Super 8 is 18fps while the local TV standard is 25fps and mobile devices are forcing 29.97/30fps to the mix.

Initially I planned to let them save to ProRes 422HQ @ 18fps. But they recommend 25fps because 18fps is incompatible with TV standards and editors.

I plan to edit the footage and export it as .mp4 watch it mainly on a computer monitor or an iPad and occasionally on an OLED TV. I think computer monitors should have no trouble with 18fps, right? But I am not sure about modern TVs.

Should I let them scan at 18fps, 25fps or even 30fps? Is 18fps asking for trouble in Final Cut Pro 10.4.8 and on a TV?

I can spot uneven movements when watching footage converted 25<->30fps by duplicating or skipping frames. I have successfully mixed some 25 and 30 fps clips in the same project via Final Cut's "Automatic Speed" which does not skip or duplicate frames but instead shortens or lengthens the clip respectfully.

I was planning to do the 18->24/30fps conversion by adding duplicate frames in Final Cut later, IF necessary. Adding duplicate frames should be easier than removing them, right? But would that work because Final Cut lacks 18fps setting and I'm not sure if even editing its exported .xml project file works anymore.

What do you think?

Posted on Jan 20, 2020 12:27 PM

Similar questions

28 replies

Feb 8, 2020 4:08 PM in response to Matti Haveri

Thanks for keeping us informed!

Matti Haveri wrote:

The service did the test clips for me.

Neither Apple ProRes nor the usual applications (FCP, Premiere, After Effects, DaVinci Resolve) do not seem to support 18fps (*). So the service exported each scanned frame to a 25fps 1920x1080 ProRes 422 HQ file (actual image area is 1444x1080 with 238 pixel black borders on both sides). That ”raw” ProRes material is further edited so the 139% fast-motion (18fps played at 25fps) frame rate was not important at this step.

Who does this "further editing"? You or them? And why is it not important?

Also, Apple ProRes 422 does support 18 fps. I have 18 fps clips in the browser. So Final Cut supports it in the browser just fine, but projects cannot be set to that frame rate. Copy that clip to the timeline and it will be converted to whatever other rate your project is set to.

I can edit and slow down the clips in Final Cut Pro X to their normal speed. For such a (Super 8) 25fps project, 72% ”slow-motion” yields the normal speed (18/25 = 0.72). That same 72% applies also when that 25fps ProRes clip is dropped to a 30, 50, or 60fps project while a 24fps project needs 75% to keep the project length exactly the same with normal speed. In each such project just the correct number of frames are added with the desired method (duplicate, blend, optical flow). No extra generation loss.

I do not understand this part. OK, you get a 25 fps transfer with no dropped or duplicated frames. And it will run 25/18 too fast in a 25 fps project. So you slow it by 0.72 with the retime function. But how can that same number (0.72) work for any other frame rates? Also, if you go from 25 to 24, you will need to drop frames. But this all depends on the 139% fast motion step above, which I do not fully understand and do not see how it cannot be important.

[Rest of quote post omitted.]

Feb 8, 2020 6:45 PM in response to Matti Haveri

I just checked out the Automatic Speed function. ****, I could have used that on a particular clip when I needed to do noise reduction at 18 fps, as there were problems doing it at 29.97. So I actually opened the clip in the timeline -- something I really don't want to do! I'll know for next time.

Matti Haveri Author

Level 6

16,925 points

Feb 9, 2020 2:13 AM in response to betaneptune

The service made two ProRes versions for me: A) unique frames at 25fps and B) 18->25fps conversion with duplicate frames (112 12 112 12 112 112 12 duplicate frame pattern). They exported the MP4 25fps delivery version from "version B". I can myself make "version B" by dropping "version A" to a 25fps FCP project timeline, doing a 71.85% slow-motion the service routinely uses, and exporting it as ProRes 422 HQ. So now I'm wondering whether I want them to do deliver "version B" because it bloats the archive more than 2x. But maybe I get also "version B" because someone in the future might not have the editing tools I now have.

The service tried to make 18fps (I believe they used FCP and After Effects). They could export at 18fps (not sure whether it was ProRes or MP4) but they said that the exported file played at the wrong frame rate anyway or that the file didn't otherwise seem to be correct. I tried to find info about the ProRes spec and the applications and 18fps support seems severely lacking. FCP sees the 18fps MP4 clip I mentioned in my previous post as 23.98fps and behind the scenes seems to treat it as 18fps in its calculations so it can import 18fps but exporting back to 18fps seems nearly impossible.

How did you get a ProRes 18fps clip? I read that some older FCP versions could be hacked to make 18fps by editing the .xml project file or something like that.

So to play it safe we settled for a standard proven workflow. I can use that ProRes "version A" as a master file if I need to re-edit the project to match various frame rates with minimal fps conversion generation loss.

I first thought that I'd have to slow down a 30fps FCP project to 60% (18/30 = 0.6). But if I drop "version A" 25fps ProRes clip to a 30fps timeline, FCP duplicates frames to keep its duration and 100% speed the same. So also in the 30fps project a 72% "slow-motion" is needed for normal speed (then frames are duplicated in a steady 221 221 pattern because in effect a 18->30fps conversion is made). That same 72% applies also to 50fps and 60fps projects. (FCP sees "version A" ProRes clip's speed as 100% while in reality it is fast-motion ~139% (25/18 ~ 1.39) from Super 8's 18fps. ~1.39 x 0.72 = 1).

(On the other hand, FCP does 25->24fps conversion by doing a 96% (24/25 = 0.96) slow-motion behind the scenes while misleadingly still showing 100% speed thus making the clip slightly longer (obviously this is the standard way of doing 25<->24fps conversions). So such a 24fps project needs 75% (0.96 x 0.75 = 0.72) slow-motion to keep the duration exactly the same -- frames are then duplicated in a steady 112 112 pattern because in effect a 18->24fps conversion is made).

Matti Haveri Author

Level 6

16,925 points

Feb 9, 2020 4:53 AM in response to betaneptune

Thanks for the tips:

I could indeed convert my 18fps H.264 .m4v file to 18fps ProRes 422 .mov file via Finder's Services. I now noticed that Final Cut Pro X 10.4.8 Inspector (cmd-4) at the upper right reports it to be 23.98fps but at the left above the film strip 18fps is correctly reported. Confusing. Anyway, the calculations are correct so Automatic Speed makes it play unique (not duplicated) frames in any FCP project (in a 24fps project at 133% speed, in a 25fps project at 139% speed, in a 30fps project at 167% speed and so on).

And I could indeed export the imported clip from the FCP browser as 18fps ProRes 422 HQ file. It just didn't previously cross my mind that I could export via that route because I was so used to exporting only projects from the timeline. What I can't do is make a 18fps Final Cut Pro project and export that.

I don't know in what codecs or maybe more importantly what frame rates the service's scanner can export. They did say that outputting TIF codec was one option but the file sizes would then be unpractically large. Creating brand-new 18fps files seems to be difficult.

I am hesitant to ask them diverting from their proven workflows because that might yield undesired results.

Feb 9, 2020 2:24 PM in response to Matti Haveri

"I now noticed that Final Cut Pro X 10.4.8 Inspector (cmd-4) at the upper right reports it to be 23.98fps but at the left above the film strip 18fps is correctly reported. Confusing."

Is your project at 23.98? That would explain the upper-right corner. But 18 fps should appear if you select the clip in the browser, or if you look in the table in the browser after adding the "video frame rate" column. But "at the left above the film strip"? I don't see anything there. What version of FCP are you using?

Note that if you open the clip in the timeline via Clip>Open Clip, you will see the clip's frame rate. I don't recommend editing a clip directly like this except in very unusual circumstances.

Feb 10, 2020 3:30 PM in response to Matti Haveri

23.98 is the default speed for a project. What version of FCP do you have? In mine they're always both the same. If I click on a clip in the browser I get the speed of the clip in the browser for both. If I put focus on the timeline area I get the project speed for both. I can't reproduce having different speeds at the same time. I'm using FCP 10.4.6.

I don't know anything about a 71.85% conversion factor. I don't have any Super 8 sound film, so I can't answer that part, either.

I don't know why they can't put whatever frame rate they want in the metadata portion of the file. Doing it after the fact would be hard if it's written in binary.

Feb 10, 2020 3:41 PM in response to betaneptune

I found a way to reproduce it. If I press Cmd-J I get the project speed in the upper right-hand corner and it stays at 18 fps on the left. That's probably what you have. So click on an 18 fps clip in the browser and then press Cmd-J.

Matti Haveri Author

Level 6

16,925 points

Feb 21, 2020 9:31 AM in response to betaneptune

The service did try to output 18fps but they said the exported file didn't seem to have that frame rate so they settled for a more proven 25fps for that "raw" frame-by-frame ProRes 422 HQ file.

I made 1 minute test clips from that Super 8 18fps frame-by-frame digitized footage by converting it with Final Cut Pro X 10.4.8 (*) to .m4v:

24fps (repeating 112 duplicate frame pattern)

30fps (repeating 122 duplicate frame pattern)

25fps (repeating 12 112 12 112 112 12 112 duplicate frame pattern)

I played the clips on a 55" LG OLED TV and on a computer monitor via QT Player 7 (the TV has some motion adjustment settings so I tested this also on a computer monitor).

I can often spot uneven movements caused by duplicated or skipped frames in 25<->30fps conversions from high quality DSLR or iPhone footage. I was surprised I couldn't see practically any difference in these Super 8 test clips. Maybe my hand-held low-quality Super 8 test footage was more forgiving.

(*) the frame-by-frame source is a 25fps fast-motion ProRes 422 HQ file. FCP sees its speed in a 25fps project as 100% so it must be slowed down by 72% (18/25 = 0.72) for normal speed.

When that 25fps source file is dropped to a 30fps project, FCP keeps the duration and 100% speed the same by duplicating frames behind the scenes so it must be slowed down the same 72% for normal speed.

24fps behaves slightly differently because FCP automatically slows down 25fps clips by 96% when they are dropped to a 24fps project (i.e. no skipped frames). So such clip must be slowed down 75% (0.96 x 0.75 = 0.72) for normal speed.

...The service routinely uses 71.85% slow down for such Super 8 25fps conversion (i.e. 17.9625fps) to keep the possible audio in sync and I couldn't see any difference in it either (such clips have a slightly different duplicate frame pattern that might not repeat at all).

Matti Haveri Author

Level 6

16,925 points

Feb 26, 2020 10:03 AM in response to Matti Haveri

FWIW, DaVinci Resolve v14.2 added support for 16 and 18fps. I just tried v16.1.2 and it seems to output 18fps ProRes 422 HQ OK (I might still let the service output to 25fps fast-motion unique frames ProRes if that is their proven workflow).

I could also successfully losslessly convert 25fps H.264 to 18fps with this tip:

Change frame rate without re-encoding. It requires remuxing the file (mp4, m4v) to a different containter format MKV and then remuxing it back into an mp4. Here is an example that changes a video to 18fps:

mkvmerge --default-duration 0:18fps --fix-bitstream-timing-information 0 original-video.mp4 -o temp-video.mkv

ffmpeg -i temp-video.mkv -c:v copy slow-video.mp4

...install instructions in macOS 10.15:

/usr/bin/ruby -e "$(curl -fsSL https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Homebrew/install/master/install)"

brew install ffmpeg

brew install mkvtoolnix

https://superuser.com/questions/320045/change-the-frame-rate-of-an-mp4-video-with-ffmpeg

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=57059

Feb 26, 2020 1:27 PM in response to Matti Haveri

Greetings,

Thanks for the info.

I'm still a bit puzzled why your transfer company has a problem with frame rates. Yeah, it'd be great for the editing programs to be able to do 16 and 18 fps. Regular 8mm was a 16 fps deal? Or sometimes 16?

And it's not like you and I are the only ones with 18 fps footage! The company I used told me it's just a number in the metadata in the file. You could make it 97 if you wanted.

BTW, the link for the ruby argument attached the )" to itself, so I initially got the old 404 bit. Please post links cleanly with no attached characters.

OK.

Matti Haveri Author

Level 6

16,925 points

Feb 28, 2020 1:57 PM in response to Matti Haveri

Those fps conversion Terminal commands seem to work properly on video-only files -- an audio track seems to make the video stutter.

AFAIK my service tried to use Premiere to output 18fps but the exported frame rate was incorrect. The links below indicate that although it is possible to make a 18fps Premiere project and export 18fps, the exported file might be forced to 15fps especially with the H.264 codec.

It seems that currently only applications like DaVinci Resolve, After Effects and Scratch support old frame rates like 18fps.

One comment in the links below claimed that "clean up" filters are much less effective when there are duplicate or blended frames. So even if the service did output 18fps ProRes 422HQ, my FCP app would then automatically convert it to a 25/30fps project with duplicated frames. So I'd then have to apply "automatic speed" to get unique frames, apply filters etc, and then revert back to normal speed with duplicated frames, right?

On the other hand, if I have fast-motion unique-frame ProRes 25fps, I could edit the material, and as a last step, apply 72% slow-motion for 25/30fps projects and 75% for a 24fps project.

Another option would be to switch to and learn DaVinci Resolve and use the smooth original 18fps also as the final mp4 delivery format because the computer monitor and my TV accept it. And convert to 25/30fps only if needed. But it would be a steep learning curve with little real benefit.

p.s. in the last link there is an interesting video about mixing Super 8 to separately recorded audio: "Since Super 8 cameras don't run at real-time unless they are crystal-synced, you have to splice up and squash and stretch segments of the video (NEVER the audio since that's realtime) in order to get it to match up to the audio".

https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro/export-18fps-sequence/td-p/10486209?page=1

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/374344-Can-Premiere-Pro-CS6-export-at-18fps

https://cinematography.com/index.php?/topic/77756-18fps-in-a-25fps-timeline/

Feb 28, 2020 2:45 PM in response to Matti Haveri

I don't understand why your service can't do an arbitrary frame rate. It's just a number in the metadata in the file. My service had no such problems. I told them 18 fps and that's what they delivered. (Perhaps I should have asked for 18 fps for the Super 8 films and 16 fps for the regular 8mm films. I didn't know at the time that 16 fps was a thing. My projector, AFAIK, ran at the same speed for both.)

I'd be a little cautious about using automatic speed to revert to unique frames. Does FCP actually check which frames are dupes? I wouldn't count on that without some testing or a reliable source. And once it's converted to 25 fps, why do you want to go back to 18 fps? Why not use the automatic speed from the outset? I'm not sure I even understand your question. Do you need the final output to be at 18 fps? Didn't you want it to be 25 or 30 fps? In which case why do you want to revert to 18, which you could have done with automatic speed before you ever got to 25?

Do you really need HQ? Won't that give you really big files? Is your footage really that good?

For cleanup, the Neat Video plugin for FCP has a repeat frame rate setting just for this purpose. If your 18 fps footage is being forced into a 24 fps timeline, you enter the percentage of frames that are unique. In this case you'd enter 75% (for NV v5, anyway. In v4 you'd enter 100% minus that). For 18->30 fps you'd enter 40%. For 18->25 fps you'd enter 72%.

Jan 20, 2020 10:17 PM in response to Matti Haveri

if available I would go for 24 fps it needs an extra frame each 3. This will be the minimum scattiness you can produce. 25 ia going to be odd

Digitize Super 8 film to 18fps or 25/30fps?