Virtualbox Mac m1

dangoulet1 wrote:

Have you tried running or building any docker images?

Hi @dangoulet1,

Yes I run a bit of stuff in Docker, but mostly I run VM's (because I write DevOps automation software for configuring VM's).

Here's a rundown of what works and what doesn't

https://docs.docker.com/desktop/mac/apple-silicon/

Thanks for the link to the docker docs. I read this and still have some pretty solid questions about why.

How can any serious developer use an M1?

I write ansible playbooks, run/build docker images locally and do lots of dev using node, python 3.7.4, dotnet, postgres, blockchain (Cardano, solana) and more. What I’m saying here is that Apple can’t predict the usecases that developers use their mbp’s in.

If I can’t use x64 VM’s locally and can’t use docker for the most common software components out there how can I work?

Again, I’m stating this as a huge Apple fan, I love all of their products (except HomePod). Most developers I know prefer MacBook Pro’s too, some even use bootcamp and windows.

These new M1’s aren’t even close to capable of supporting most developers needs.

Apple is famous for creating amazing hardware and software combos, no vendor has come close to this.

I feel like the lack of x64 architecture is a step too far too quick. It’s like Apple gets into an argument with companies like Nvidia and bam, only AMD graphics, this hurts developers options for machine learning cause CUDA is the most flexible and widely adopted.

I realize I’ve been ranting about this for a while now. Sorry. I just haven’t seen a single person agree, unless they purchased one and found all of these shortcomings themselves.

Well, I agree and I'm actually a bit unnerved at the way Apple is scaling back things that support business users as well.

I believe Apple thinks that everything should be done "in the cloud" (as SAS and HaaS is more lucrative than allowing privately run servers). And maybe they now see the future of the Mac as more of a thin client.

I started programming in the 70's on a mainframe and up until the last maybe... 5 years, the available tools, the internet, and technology were always expanding. Every year there were more and more things an individual could do and create. But lately, since the idea of cloud computing and SAS has taken over, the opposite is happening. Big-Tech is slowly squeezing us into doing things "their way" (with a monthly fee).

The voice of the shareholder is much louder than the developer (or the end users). Rather myopic in my opinion.

I'm worried that it is beginning to stifle creativity.

dangoulet1 wrote:

How can any serious developer use an M1?

Because you assume “serious developers” all develop in the way you do.

• Anyone that develops for iOS or macOS uses Xcode, which works out of the box and generates binaries for both x86 and Apple silicon.

• People who develop for other operating systems often already have procedures they use that continue to work as before as they connect to other machines or launch other instances via local tools or remotely after using ssh to login to another system. None of that has changed.

Thanks, my feelings exactly.

I always run the systems I create in the cloud but I develop them locally often not using cloud tools.

Development workflows are usually local with deployments to the cloud.

I feel like Apple is leaving us developers out again so they can lock people into their ML, CPU’s and such. It’s such a shame cause I love Apple products and this will change.

dangoulet1 wrote:

I feel like Apple is leaving us developers out again so they can lock people into their ML, CPU’s and such. It’s such a shame cause I love Apple products and this will change.

Again, you keep making "developers" a monolithic group, so no, Apple is not "leaving developers out."

If you really feel that way, feel free to pick up generic PC hardware.

I personally work with hundreds of developers on a regular basis, and the ones with an M1 MacBook Pro have zero issues because none of them work the way you do.

Hundreds?? Come on man. None of the developers develop and execute their code on their local machine?

You work with hundreds of developers working on M1’s? Does that mean you work at Apple? Lol.

I love how you try to blame me for saying I expect to accomplish the same types of tasks with a newer version of the same product.

Do these hundreds of developers you work with just use XCode?

Actually, no, they generally don't, they use their MBPs as tools to connect to other machines where they run their code, usually a physical Linux machine or cloud instance of some kind.

If you need to run code locally, you use Xcode, there's no reason to use anything else as Xcode is the Apple development environment for iOS/macOS.

I don't work at Apple - no one here not specifically noted as an Apple employee does - but many companies allow their developers to choose their hardware, and the vast majority I work with choose a MacBook Pro of some flavor or an iMac, and the processor it is running makes absolutely zero difference to them.

I’ve worked with teams that work the way your teams do. That’s not our preference, it’s quite expensive.

We run Kubernetes clusters for our server systems and do all dev locally, using tools such as docker, vm’s if necessary.

Buying a nice and fast MacBook Pro with >= 32GB of memory allows us to accomplish everything we need.

Maybe non startups can afford to follow your approach but sadly I love mbp’s for dev and will buy a refurbished x86.

I don’t like windows and really don’t want to use Linux, MacOS is great.

First, software developers (except for those developing Apple software) have never been a target audience for Apple. And starting with the first iMac in the late 90's Apple has always focused on the consumer market, with some nods to professional media users (photo, video, audio). But software developers and power users, not so much. Mostly because they became a 3 trillion dollar company (for a few days at least) by focusing on consumers. The non-technical users. They went from almost bankrupt in the mid-90's to the where they are today by the single consumer focus.

Re: Developers

The company I work for uses thousands of Macs and are starting to roll out M1 Pro Macs to developers (they also have even more Windows systems). The Mac in this instance is used to connect via ssh, VNC or Microsoft Remote Desktop Connection to company data centers (there are many large company data centers around the world) where there are tons of virtual machines running Linux, Solaris, AIX, Windows, and others. AIX and Solaris run on SPARC and PowerPC hardware that is para-virtualized.

The Macs are used to access those systems. And they are used to VPN into the work network, do email, Slack, web access, word processing, spreadsheets, project management, etc...

Some of our developers had been using Mac virtual machine software to run Windows. This group is out-of-luck, and will have to see about renting a Windows system in a data center, or get over their need for that 1 last Windows program they do not want to give up. The ones doing Linux development, have to switch to an ARM64 Linux implementation. The Solaris and AIX developers always had to do their work on real hardware.

And it is possible to use tools that edit locally on the Mac, but save the files on the remote systems. There are several programming editors (Vim, Emacs) as well as IDE packages that can use this concept, and even send remote commands for the compiles.

If you must run X86 code on your Mac, then maybe the UTM project will work for you.

https://mac.getutm.app

If Windows is your target, then Parallels can boot the Microsoft Surface Tablet version of Windows, and it has X86-64 emulation (not as good as Rosetta, but it works).

Otherwise, an older intel Mac, or an intel PC that you install your choice of operating system.

And referring back to MrHoffman's comments. I have lived through many architecture changes, from 1's complement 18'bit UNIVAC 418-III systems, 12 bit PDP-12 systems, 16 bit PDP-11 and Xerox Sigma 3 systems, Z80 systems, 32-bit VAX systems, 64-bit MIPS systems, 64-bit Alpha systems, Motorola 68000 Macs, PowerPC Macs, Intel Macs, and now a M1 Max Mac.

While ARM is a darling in hand held devices because of its low power, high performance curve, and data centers that want to cut power can cooling costs, as well as the current line of Macs, chances are in a number of years, something new will come out (quantum computers) that causes yet another shift in architecture.

BobHarris wrote:

While ARM is a darling in hand held devices because of its low power, high performance curve, and data centers that want to cut power can cooling costs, as well as the current line of Macs, chances are in a number of years, something new will come out (quantum computers) that causes yet another shift in architecture.

This may be inevitable and may result in Rosetta v3, but I also suspect now that Apple is in charge of their own silicon destiny that may be less likely in the future.

A lot depends on what their chip architecture folks are able to implement in future M series processors and if some other architecture jumps ahead by leaps and bounds.

Dogcow-Moof wrote:

BobHarris wrote:

While ARM is a darling in hand held devices because of its low power, high performance curve, and data centers that want to cut power can cooling costs, as well as the current line of Macs, chances are in a number of years, something new will come out (quantum computers) that causes yet another shift in architecture.

This may be inevitable and may result in Rosetta v3, but I also suspect now that Apple is in charge of their own silicon destiny that may be less likely in the future.

A lot depends on what their chip architecture folks are able to implement in future M series processors and if some other architecture jumps ahead by leaps and bounds.

Your right that controlling what gets put on the chip will give them more flexibility, but Apple has never been afraid to jump to a new architecture when the new chip was superior. They have a history and a culture that makes it easier for them to make such a jump.

Then again 3 trillion dollar valuation and the high profit margins Apple commands, will let them invest in chip development. Also writing the operating system that uses the chip, means very tight integration, which also helps a lot.

I spent lot of money on macbook air m1 chip but there is no use. It has been 1 year over still there is no solution. It is better to go with windows laptop rather spending too much on apple product like this. I am planning to sell my macbook and will get the window laptop.

Abhi1640 wrote:

I spent lot of money on macbook air m1 chip but there is no use. It has been 1 year over still there is no solution. It is better to go with windows laptop rather spending too much on apple product like this. I am planning to sell my macbook and will get the window laptop.

Good idea. Get the computer that meets your needs. Same applies to any purchase. This is why I drive a pickup truck rather than a Smart Car.

Abhi1640 wrote:

I spent lot of money on macbook air m1 chip but there is no use. It has been 1 year over still there is no solution. It is better to go with windows laptop rather spending too much on apple product like this. I am planning to sell my macbook and will get the window laptop.

By all means, sell the Mac to somebody that can use it, and buy what hardware meets your requirements.