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Solution for improving stability of Word, Excel and Safari on Mac OS Catalina??

Hello there. Today is Feb. 16, 2022. First of all please do not suggest I upgrade to Monterey unless there is absolutely no other possible solution. I have a 2017 iMac, Retina 5K, 16 GB RAM, 50% occupied HD, 4 GB Video RAM, quad-core i5. IT's running latest version of OS Catalina as of Feb. 2022. Word and Excel have been crashing soon after I installed them (Office 2019) about 3 years ago, even though I apply the updates. Now, Safari hangs when I download PDF's (since Apple has not put out any more OS Catalina Safari updates, I notice). Clearing Safari cache/history/cookies does not help. In general overall responsiveness is very good, but Word, Excel and Safari hang often. Not crash but hang - freeze behavior. Firefox is never a problem but I run it with tight security and rarely use it. No other apps have this hang-freeze behavior. I have tried uninstalling and reinstalling Office, well I think I have, but no change.


Is it possible to do a clean install of Mac OS Catalina, even though I can't download it from Apple anymore? I see it might be possible, when I look at forums, but I'm not convinced it will work. It's a production machine I use for teaching online and I need to to function. I use the force quit often for Word, Excel and Safari because they become unresponsive. Word, Excel since 3 years ago, and Safari only recently.


I 'm a former Windows guy, and doing clean installs fixed many things. We called it "win-rot" and the fix was a clean install about once every 3 years. Can I clean install Catalina now, in Feb. of 2022?? Or is another approach to create a new user on the Mac, copy data to new profile and try that first???


Please advise if you can. I'd like more stability and keep Catalina, if possible. Monterey is not stable yet to my liking as I read about some people's issues, and I"m concerned with my experience now of hangs, that upgrading to Monterey will also preserve the hanging behavior. It may be that system files are affected in someway and I do not know how to assess their true condition. So, I will not upgrade at this time. But a clean install sounds good if I can preserve Catalina.


Any good advice out there? Appreciate it for anyone answering along the lines of my hopes here. Thank you.





iMac 27″ 5K, macOS 10.15

Posted on Feb 16, 2022 7:17 PM

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14 replies

Mar 17, 2022 7:51 AM in response to Jheuser1

Add-on security tools do have a history of causing instabilities and crashes, and the tools tie into platforms much thr same as malware itself does.


Absent organizational requirements and scale and staff for endpoint security, on Windows using Defender and not Sophos, and on macOS similarly; of using the built-in tools Gatekeeper, MRT, XProtect, Notarization, the app store, and the read-only system.


Some of the add-on security apps have been privacy nightmares, too. Both selling off privacy, and vulnerabilities found in some add-on anti-malware tools have themselves been explicitly targeted and used to breach the end-user’s platforms. Some of the add-on security tools have been laughably bad implementations—IIRC a report a few years back, about a third of all US government computer security breaches were found to be made via add-on security and security-management tools.


Just what is malware, and what isn’t? The junk apps found on macOS are generally adware and privacy-sucking dreck, and these apps explicitly installed by the user so… are those apps really malware to be removed? Too many of the add-on commercial VPN apps can likely or do fit here unfortunately, and the benefits and security of the VPN portions of the connection can also be debatable, and even suspect.


The security breaches on Apple that get posted around here and that get discussed elsewhere on the ‘net are generally password- and password-reuse and phishing-related breaches. (There are some security vendors and some websites that can and will hype every security breach found, too.)


While there absolutely does exist malware for macOS, iPhone, and iPad, that malware has been—at least so far—targeted at specific individuals, and at older hardware and older software versions. And Gatekeeper, Notarization, MRT, etc have been able to quash the few reported problems.


Put differently, the answers here differ for different folks.

  • dissidents, investigative journalists, senior business or political leaders, etc., that are targets for expensive tooling.
  • those of us unfortunately in combat areas, and subject to signal interception and location.
  • Those of us targeted by someone we know, and variously also with local access. Abusive exes, etc.
  • Most of us that aren’t directly targeted outside of mass phishing and scam calendars and related social engineering.


The last two groups are (so far) the bulk of us. Which means for many of us following Apple guidelines around security and privacy, and working through the in-built security recommendation lists is the appropriate approach:


https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1976/en_US/device-and-data-access-when-personal-safety-is-at-risk.pdf


Put slightly differently, what we’re getting bagged by is not the sort of stuff that add-on anti-malware apps have traditionally helped us with, and—at least so far—the sorts of threats encountered by folks using macOS differ in various ways from those encountered by folks using Windows. That may well all change of course, but then security does necessarily change and adapt.


If an add-on anti-malware app makes you more comfortable, by all means use it. But don’t assume that tool isn’t itself a potential vulnerability.


And too often overlooked and central to data security and preservation, how deep and how secure are your backups?


And yes, it does seem that the third world war has started up, and where that might go from here?


There’s no panacea. Got backups?


Feb 18, 2022 1:28 PM in response to Jheuser1

Easily the better answer that may help troubleshoot and could resolve

hidden issues would be to get and use EtreCheck, as sugggested. And

instructive user-tip says, and use its generated report in ASC for ideas.


Do not upgrade to a later macOS; that's often a mistaken rabbit-hole.

Suggested items from rkaufmann87's post are worthwhile to follow.


His reply is linked-back here, to offer future evidence of sanity.

Solution for improving stability of Word,… - Apple Community


Feb 16, 2022 9:51 PM in response to Jheuser1

I would also suggest the following, to see if there is anything installed on your system to make it so unstable. Catalina and Monterey are both extremely stable. Normally the issue is NOT Mac OS but what has been installed to make it unstable.


It will help us get a good idea of what is causing your problem if you provide a report of your system, that way we do not have to play 20 questions with you. The report we are requesting does NOT provide any personal information and is extremely safe to use. Please navigate to www.Etrecheck.com and download the free version of EtreCheck. Once you have you downloaded the app and installed it, please run the report and save it. This report will help us get a good idea what has been installed on your system and help us be able to diagnose what may be wrong.


When you have your report, you can attach it when you reply to this message and we can then review it and help you determine what is needed to get your system running well again. 


For instructions on how to download your EtreCheck report and attach it to your reply to this message please click https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-250000211


Mar 27, 2022 3:39 PM in response to Jheuser1

In no particular order...


As someone interested in security, it's up to you to look at and learn the sorts of threats. Alas, carrying over knowledge of Microsoft Windows threats and tooling and defenses is not necessarily transportable, same as can comparing CVE counts and other such approaches. Different platforms have different risks, prevalence, user activities, and security designs.


Notarization is required of apps signed by Developer ID and distributed outside the app store starting with Mojave. So you're running completely unsigned code, or running built-from source. Bypassing Gatekeeper has gotten incrementally more difficult in Big Sur as well, around non-notarized apps. Notarization gives Apple a very good idea of who is building what, and where the apps are running, this for apps distributed outside the app store.


Add-on anti-malware itself is a ripe target and various apps have been subject to attack. Some of what has been available has been utter rubbish designs, and some with un-isolated parsers processing untrusted data, among other fundamental programming mistakes. (Link below.)


Based on postings around here, and on reports in the Apple "echo chamber", and security CVEs, malware has been less of an issue with Mac than with Microsoft Windows, and Mac ransomware particularly has been rare with a couple of cases reported over the years, and most of what's been found around on recent versions has mostly been adware and search engine dreck. Does malware exist for macOS? Sure. Surprises? A few. Endemic? Not that we've heard.


One to ponder: is adware malware, or not? If the user set out to install the app, what does anti-malware then do about it? Various postings around here have had add-on anti-malware apps and peacefully adware coexisting, and whether that's wrong or right depends on your perspective.


Apple is not big on providing instrumentation for correct operations—conversely and more amusingly, older Windows was always so utterly proud of itself when it successfully connected and mounted a USB flash device—and tools such as Gatekeeper and XProtect and MRT run in the background, and update in the background. There've been folks grumbling about variations of that for years, too.


Omitted from your list of defenses is the read-only operating system configuration, and which is now sealed. While far from a panacea, writes to more than a few "useful" locations within macOS are now blocked.


The add-on apps can themselves end up being the exploit. One of the better-known add-on anti-malware apps around was uploading web browsing and web purchasing history, personally identified, and that data then re-sold. That case has supposedly stopped, though I suspect various other add-on security apps and add-on commercial VPN apps are little more than forms of widely-advertised instrumentation for user tracking. In one notable case, the anti-malware was the path in. There have been others.


Effective defenses against ransomware usually involve write-only backups, or very deep and offsite backups, or some combination. Attacks here can involve weeks or months of reconnaissance efforts on the part of the attackers. Add-on anti-malware doesn't particularly help there, nor do shallow or writable backups. Canaries, outbound blocks and reloaded network monitoring, segmented networks, and distributed authentication approaches akin to BeyondCorp might. This also tends to be outside the range of most Mac users without IT assistance.


The NIST guidelines for macOS configurations might interest, an effective-defenses writeup, as can the Apple platform security guide. And here's an older write-up on Sophos anti-malware design flaws on Windows, too.


This is your Mac. Run it as you will.

Feb 17, 2022 6:58 AM in response to Jheuser1

I guess I'm going to be one of those guys ... you need a more modern OS (Monterey) to use a more modern MS Office suite.


When it comes to Office, there are a blue bazillion things that can go wrong. But one common theme always seems to run through Microsoft products: they need up-to-date hardware and software, i.e. operating systems. For instance, the current decision to ignore millions of Windows 10 users to push a Windows 11 needing more modern specs.



Feb 18, 2022 12:27 PM in response to Jheuser1

Thank you for all who responded to my post. I'm hesitant to install any more 3rd party apps, especially when it is not available to download from the Apple store. I tried safe mode. Same issues I reported are still in existence with that user profile. BTW, my issues are with a standard user profile, not admin level. I would not use an admin level user for day to day computer use due to the increased risk of complete iMac compromise.


This problem with Office has been there during the time of the stability of OS Catalina, as a reminder. I created another user profile on my iMac Catalina 10.15.7. All issues are non-existent in that profile! So, this issue is solved like back in the day of Windows 7, creating a new user profile would be a quicker solution to a potentially difficult to assess condition of the only other standard user profile.


So........ that means my problem as I posted it is due to the concept of user profile data that is either cluttered/corrupt/link libraries out of sorts, or other similar things that are ONLY found in a SPECIFIC user profile. Caps added for understanding.


It's really interesting that a new user profile has no issues. That really proves the point of it being profile related. Same apps are installed on both profiles.


So, it's not about some non-Apple app causing a problem. If it were systemic issue like that, it would show up on all user profiles. This means if I were to upgrade to Monterey right now, since an upgrade does not return a user profile to a pristine state, but keeps data/settings etc., and upgrades things "in place" I would likely have the same issues with that user profile, while other user profiles would be great. And there is a risk upgrading a problematic user profile could cause more issues with it.


As I stated in my post, this is a production machine, I use it for teaching, being an independent music teacher with online students. So I must have a level of predictable stability, and take a conservative viewpoint on assuming risk. Obviously creating a new user profile is extremely low risk to existing user profiles. Having Word, Excel and Safari that freeze up is manageable until I finish getting that new user profile completely ready.


So, part of my issue is having a solution that can be done in place without changing the entire machine, as in an upgrade to Monterey in the iMac's present state was suggested. Business continuity is paramount here. :)


Once I move the large amount of data from the old user profile to the new one, I'll delete the old one. And then I can consider upgrading to Monterey.


Is there an Apple approved way of keeping one's profile maintained so such problems do not resurface in the future? Without buying a third party app?


I do not like following scripting I find in some solutions because I do not understand the Mac OS architecture well enough, as it pertains to script commands. So, if there is a character out of place in a posting I might consider using, there is a risk of unintended consequences that could compromise the stability of this my production machine.


I want to show that this issue was solved by creating a new user, as I suspected might solve it. But thanks to all of you who contributed! I appreciate your feedback and perspectives!


So, if anyone knows of an Apple approved way of keeping a user profile from becoming problematic, please let me know. Again, I would not use an app if Apple did not develop it directly.

Mar 16, 2022 8:04 PM in response to K Shaffer

Hello,


I'm responding to everyone who has contributed ideas here. I want to thank all of you. In researching the current security climate, looking at CISA and US CERT bulletins and reading the security issues OS Monterey solves compared to staying with Catalina, and for that reason alone of improved security on my iMac, I decided to upgrade my iMac OS from Catalina to Monterey. That was late February.


I decided security was more important than the issues I described, and if I had to I would reinstall Office and/or live with the annoyances I described since my system was still dependable "enough" to get by, and maybe, pay Apple support to get things back on track, if I needed to, since my iMac support is expired. That's what I was ready to do, after considering my security posture with this system. But I would not install a system evaluation app on my iMac and upload that to a website, at least not from home. I mean that EtreCheck app mentioned in here. God no. (You'll understand in a minute or two in this letter.....) Maybe within an Apple support office that might be okay with me, if it were an only or last resort.


That upgrade to OS Monterey was done February 26-27.


I have had zero issues that I posted here since then. So, all performance problems with Microsoft Office and Safari are non existent. The OS upgrade went smoothly with no issues whatsoever. So, I'm on Monterey 12.2, its been stable, and will upgrade to 12.3 soon to complete the increased security. Thank you again to all who posted ideas here.


FYI, I have been running Sophos Home Premium on this System the whole time, with default settings, minus camera/mic alerts - except I stopped an automatic weekly scan, prior to the OS upgrade. The weekly scan is still disabled and will stay that way for a while. I'll find a way to exclude MS Office template files from any future scans before I run any future scan, since "if" Sophos contributed to my past issues with Office 365 products, this would be the likely cause, scanning the Word and Excel template file when in use. At least it's a known issue from my past, with other security programs on Windows and Linux (Red Hat and other purchased varieties) based systems.


You may ask why I have Sophos Home Premium on a Mac OS? Or why put a security program on a Mac OS at all? I'll just say that since the years of my role as an IT Security Admin in a corporate Windows environment, (2002-2014), before I went back to my career as a music teacher in 2015, Apple has published a noticeable increase in security patches for all their computing/device products, so that is a concern in light of the rhetoric I had been hearing for years that a Mac OS is so much more secure than Windows that one does not need a security program on it, (well it is by design but more secure does not mean secure enough). I would say those days are past. The internet bad guys are way more inventive now, and more and more "talent" from any country in the world is growing as a presence out there; white or black hat. Ostrich time is over I feel.


But, really that depends on how one uses the system, as to level of risk, as it touches the internet in various ways, or how much your system is exposed to wardrivers and the like if you live in a populated area. WiFi specs, including bluetooth, has greater range than 6-7 years ago ya' know. Unless one has an air-gapped system, one needs a security program or its equivalent from a home grown solution, IMO. Each path outward is also a possible attack vector back in. With an ioT, our home networks are more burdened with inbound traffic. Speaking metaphorically: You can bet the more criminals that can drive by your house looking for an unlocked door, or window, or hole in the wall, creates more likelihood one will be found. Just the concept alone is food for thought.


I had also been a (Symantec) SEP 12.xx administrator (actually since SEP 10.xx) in the same Windows environment, and after my research on a security product for my iMac, I decided upon Sophos for a balance of performance and security. Definitely Symantec would not be a good choice, for my needs, with its high overhead, and frankly I have a slight bit, and that is "slight", more trust from a UK derived product than USA derived.


Thought I might throw this security stuff in the mix to see what you guys experience is within this realm! And at least since just prior to Stuxnet and its subsequent variations, we've actually been in WW3 on the cyber level though nations don't want to admit that. I worked for a company that maintained government contracts as a mainstay, in my IT days, so I was boots on the ground with all that. Things are often different than the way they appear as I'm sure all of you have seen one way or another.


Go team! :)


Good luck to all!


Kind Regards,

JH

Mar 27, 2022 1:25 PM in response to MrHoffman

Hi,


Thanks for your reply. Interesting. The question that occurs to me is how much security is enough, is necessary, for any particular user. I'm not in an organization but a one computer guy. Yes, of course, backups, multiple are needed - iCloud, "other" cloud service and static to an attached physical external drive or internal network source. At least these three. Plus offsite full backups to make it four.


I was not familiar with the built in security things you mentioned in your post. So, I have been looking into them. Below, when I remark "Am I missing something" it is not rhetorical, but an actual question to you.


The read only system exists in Windows, so no real advantage there. Even so its an improvement compared to say, 10-15 years ago. So yes its helpful.


Effectiveness of the built in layers of security the Mac OS has, is not as protective as laid out by Apple, from what I have read, I'm sorry to report back to you. Yes, it is helpful but I will make a case why it is not nearly enough. This is concerning App Store, gatekeeper, Notarization, XProtect and MRT.


Replying on gatekeeper and App Store seems not that practical, as a feature for reliance, for many, like me. To function with a Mac OS it is often necessary to install software not available on the App Store, and gatekeeper is informational as a function not protective. User decision bypasses this layer easily. As we know over 90% of data breaches occur due to users, not defenses in place, even the best defenses in depth get the run around from errant user decisions. So, expecting all users to use software only from the App Store is plain silly and not practical. I see no management tool, for a single Mac computer to remedy this lack of forced compliance. Or have I missed something?


Notarization requires an app be submitted to Apple to function as intended. Notarization is intended to be a malware scanning service, however app behavior, outside of apps submitted to Apple is not evaluated in the security environment but requires the app be "known" by Apple. Many apps that function on a Mac OS have never been submitted to Apple for notarization, and won't be. Malware definition updates through Notarization are only possible for apps from the App Store. Yes, a nice idea but it does not go far enough for me. Again, am I missing something?


XProtect, while a nice idea, is not able to be evaluated in real time as to its functionality. We just "trust " it is working. There is no management, no follow up, no logs, no administration of this I see. Again, am I missing something? Using YARA signatures is great in concept, and can be effective, BUT, again we cannot verify its effectiveness since there is not a management tool to evaluate its effectiveness. "We need to see results, people. Verify, verify, verify" to take a phrase out of a Jason Bourne movie.


If you are a financial company, do you use your own internal auditors to assess your compliance with best financial accounting practices, or is it more responsible to hire an outside firm to asses that for you? If you are a CFO, do you not want another opinion than your own for the sake of the continued viability of your company? Applying this concept to XProtect, there is an apparent conflict of interest due to lack of real follow up. It is hidden in the OS as to how it functions and real administration is apparently not possible. Again, am I missing something?


MRT does not appear to have verifiable signatures for malware nor reference to a database a security administrator can evaluate, nor administration for latest updates related to the current threat environment in the US or other parts of the world. So, again, this is fairly hidden in the OS, and we just "trust" is it working. That does not seem to be a good security posture in my view. I need a higher standard of verification and evidence it is actually working as designed.


If your layers of security are not reporting at least a minimal false positive, then they are not diving deep enough into the security systems and subsystems that relate to evaluating behavior deeply enough. This is why too much of a good thing is necessary, at least in a small measure, in systems security.


None of these built in security layers seem adequately capable of addressing ransomware unless is it old, and Safari seems incapable of any defense in depth. It did not detect an attempted drive-by that Sophos quashed easily.


To give a number evaluation on a scale of 1 to 10, it appears to me these built in security items score a 6 out o 10 in my view.


I will be keeping Sophos on Mac OS Monterey for now and appreciating it. Again, Mr. Hoffman, thanks for your response. And if in my complaints above, if one can do what I report is not able to be done, such as administration, follow-up, verification and the like, in your opinion, please do issue your view on that. I am appreciating that in advance.


Thank you,

JH







Solution for improving stability of Word, Excel and Safari on Mac OS Catalina??

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