Issue with Proximity Sensor during calls - Continued v2

falconeye wrote:

mbassoc2003 wrote:
Gotta disagree with you Michael. The phone is not faulty. It works for the vast majority of users. If you have a product, and the overwhelming majority of users have no issue with it, it cannot be faulty.

That's not the logic calculus as I learned it at university.

Not debating if it an overwhelming majority or not. Just consider this:

A BMW sedan (their only model) which makes all people hurt their head when larger than 6 foot. Cannot be faulty? :lol:

Again, this is pure BS. By your rationale, All US motor vehicles are faulty if aome Chinese guy who is over 7 foot tall hurts his head? Presumable in your worls all Microsoft mice are faulty because they do not fit the left hand, and all vehicles are faulty because they cannot be safely driven by the blind? What sort for f"cked up logic is that?

No company designs a product to perfectly fit the usage demands of 100% of people. That is what capitalism and freedom of choice are all about. If Apple release a phone and the overwhelming majority of buyers have no issue with it and it works perfectly for them, then it is not faulty because 1 or 2 in every 100 people cannot figure out how everypone else manages to use the phone without a problem. There is no problem. There might be a limitation in the design, but there are limitations in the design of everything. The phone is faulty if you're left handed because there is no left handed model, but no one is saying that's a fault, and left handed buyers account for a far greater number of users than the PS issue crowd. And guess what, they realised a long time ago that the world just wasn't going to pander to their whims, and that they'd have to deal with things not being designed to suit them in life, and they buy iPhones and get on with their lives with no ill feeling and no hullabaloo. The fact that all of a sudden a tiny proportion of people suddenly find that they can't interface correctly with the new iPhone 4 modell is sad, but iut's neither a fault, not an issue of any significance in the grand scheme of Apple. It's an irrelevance on a scale comparable to MS Vista. The world will move alsong and ignore the issue and the company will grow and develope.

Let's face it. If it was an issue of any importance, it would have been dealt with already. The fact that it's been known for 10 weeks and isn't likely to be fixed until the company has developed it's mobile gaming platform really puts the actual importance or size of the issue into perspective.

bmwhd1 wrote:
Should have known better than to try to add anything constructive to this conversation. In parting I will say to several of you that keep insisting this is a universal problem with all IP4s - IT IS NOT. I have a large collection of them in support at our office. I have several under test in our beta program as well. Out of all of those - one, exactly one, out of a dozen so far has exhibited the PS problem. Therefore I know it exists. However, the others - zip, zero, nada, never, not once, no problems, period.

You are the first person EVER on the forum to post that you have seen handsets that have the PS issue, and handsets that do not. And if I'm reading you right, you claim that in your experience, it's 1 in 12.

That begs the question... A lot of users here have gone through 3, 4 and 5 handset replacements, and all have received handsets with the PS issue in return for handsets with the PS issue. If you believe your claim to be true, then explain why Apple are deliberately setting aside or manufacturing faulty handsets and giving them only to people who have faulty handsets?

Your data runs contrary to all the data previously presented to the forums, and contrary to the experiences of the board members and any form of logic that a company would specificly target customers with faulty goods. Therefore, your data must be flawed, either intentionally, or through poor research.

I have this problem. I think its another design flaw and I'm getting tired of Apple not sorting it out.

Im waiting for the next update (and Im getting Impatient), if it doesn't fix it, I am going to citizens advice because I know Apple are not going to want to refund me without a fight.

I have 2 IP4's without PS problems. None of my previous 3G (3 in family) or 3GS had a PS problem either. I'm certain Apple knows how to make the PS work...since it has been part of the IP3 family for 3 years now.

I don't doubt that some have a problem...most like a faulty LED or photodiode sensor. But I think it must be a small percentage of the 3 million plus sold.

But one thing I'm also certain of...if you rest the iP4 between your shoulder ear...you will have problems. It is a proximity sensor after all...and holding the phone like that is not a 'proximity' situation. Also one has a high risk of dropping the phone ( besides the call). The sensor on my phone works only up to a range of about 1 inch. Resting on one's shoulder can be more than that..and vary a lot in distance. I think that is how the 3G worked too. It's possible that moving the sensor from the left of the speaker to on top...but I don't see that in my phones.

Better and safer to use speaker phone or the ear piece with microphone. It seems if you have a problem..Apple will give you a new one. But really don't expect it to work 'consistently' if held on the shoulder.

MichaelEmpire wrote:

rbrylawski wrote:
Thank you for clarifying your thoughts and invovlement. What you've written is interesting for sure. People seem angry that Apple hasn't rolled out the software yet. It's clear it's a complicated issue and the fact the solution is likely rolled into the soon to be released 4.1 update adds further complication I'm sure. Plus people often forget the past, which is a good barometer of the future. And that is that everytime the iPhone has been released in the June timeframe, the first major software update doesn't typically roll out until September. If the past predicts the future, the update will be out next month. Hopefully for those who are really afflicted with the PS issue, there problems will be resolved. Who is it who said "patience is a virtue?"

You unrestricted in support the Apple in it's fraud. It is amassing what you suggesting. Let's Apple sell the phones that people can not even use as a phone and let all be patient for 3 and may more months when MAY BE Apple comes with some kind of miracle.

One one hand the question is what if Apple never can fix it . What then ?
On the other hand ( and it will not happened ) if Apple fixes it in 6 months ? Will Apple give then some money back to the buyers ?

I hope you read some people here explained the lifespan of the phone is about 1 year and for those who buy it now 10 months. Even if the issue fixed in 3 months from now it will be 6 months ( if so long , may be less ) before the new model comes in. But people paid the FULL price for current model.
Not even mentioning ATT subscription and contracts still binding poor buyers.

Where did you get this information that 4.1 is released next month ? Who told you that ? Also who told you that any fix is coming in 4.1 ? May be it is coming in 4.3 ? Then what ?

Everything would not be not so bad and would be understandable if Apple would ( I know it is too much to ask ) issue the statement and let all new buyers know that it is an issue with PS and everybody should think before they buy ihone4.
Instead we have one statment saying " Some users experience this and we try to address in the next release ".

And from what we hear , Apple offers to replace one bad unit for another bad unit or wait for indefinite amount of time for something nobody knows what and when.

But Meanwhile Apple continue to sell MILLIONS defective phones.

Not only selling but setting a trap when after 30 days it is next to impossible to get the money back. But even within 30 days if you have a small scratch it is also impossible . So not only a fraud in selling the defective device it is by now clear it is done knowingly by Apple but also knowingly setting up all the traps ( including but not limited to encouraging vague statements about software fix ). Everything is done by Apple to sell the defective device and minimize the people wiliness and possibility returning it for the full refund.

But absolutely nothing is relevant for you. You have ( another miracle ) special phone with absolutely no PS issue and for you Apple is the best company and everybody should be patient does not matter what.

But with all the respect since it is your position you simply having some interest having such unfair approach.

Michael.....you are still trolling here and you are beyond annoying.

I never said a fix WILL be out next month. But of course your grasp of the english language is somewhere close to a six year old. I said IF HISTORY PREDICTS THE FUTURE, an update will be out. I predict nothing other than the past as a possible view into the future.

Oh and Michael, I don't have one special phone. I have TWO! And neither seem to be subject to any PS issues.

Now, give it a rest.......

Thanks that now you clarify for us that from the past we should know that updates coming in about 3 months. Also now it is clear that you do not know if 4.1 possibly release at some time will fix PS problem. But you said " Hopefully " it will. Unfortunately you did not share with us where those hopes come from and if those hopes haven any grounds other than your optimistic nature.

Since you have 2 iphone4 with absolutely no PS problem you a very lucky owner and you may put it at the auction for a lot of moeny. Or better keep them and they definitely will be a collectable items in the Future as you can predict from the past.

On a serious note I do believe you do not have any PS problems with your phones or almost NO problem ( may be one time for the time of use). But it is not only your phone it is also the way you are holding it. I do believe that for you it works and it does not bother you. But it does not mean your phone is to much deferent from many other phones.

viewfly wrote:
I have 2 IP4's without PS problems. None of my previous 3G (3 in family) or 3GS had a PS problem either. I'm certain Apple knows how to make the PS work...since it has been part of the IP3 family for 3 years now.

I don't doubt that some have a problem...most like a faulty LED or photodiode sensor. But I think it must be a small percentage of the 3 million plus sold.

But one thing I'm also certain of...if you rest the iP4 between your shoulder ear...you will have problems. It is a proximity sensor after all...and holding the phone like that is not a 'proximity' situation. Also one has a high risk of dropping the phone ( besides the call). The sensor on my phone works only up to a range of about 1 inch. Resting on one's shoulder can be more than that..and vary a lot in distance. I think that is how the 3G worked too. It's possible that moving the sensor from the left of the speaker to on top...but I don't see that in my phones.

Better and safer to use speaker phone or the ear piece with microphone. It seems if you have a problem..Apple will give you a new one. But really don't expect it to work 'consistently' if held on the shoulder.

You definitely missing the main point here. Nobody is trying to hold the iphone 4 differently from the way we were all holding all other phones including 3GS. we not suppose just to become different users because someone make different phone. It is also not in the manual how should we hold the phone and how we should not.
The problem is people do hold the phone the same way as the used to hold the phones before and you directing them to change the habits.

Also The problem not only exist when you hold the phone with the shoulder but when you moving the phone during conversation and keep it too close to your face.

Not even mentioning the senor system has a certain algorithm and Not a simple measurement of the distance between the object and the phone.

I may be will surprise you but the proximity sensor is not as you think a "photodiode" . If you want to I can tell you what is the difference and the principal how does it work.

The PS is an active device and "photodiode" is passive devices , just to let you think in a right direction.

mbassoc2003 wrote:

bmwhd1 wrote:
Should have known better than to try to add anything constructive to this conversation. In parting I will say to several of you that keep insisting this is a universal problem with all IP4s - IT IS NOT. I have a large collection of them in support at our office. I have several under test in our beta program as well. Out of all of those - one, exactly one, out of a dozen so far has exhibited the PS problem. Therefore I know it exists. However, the others - zip, zero, nada, never, not once, no problems, period.

You are the first person EVER on the forum to post that you have seen handsets that have the PS issue, and handsets that do not. And if I'm reading you right, you claim that in your experience, it's 1 in 12.

That begs the question... A lot of users here have gone through 3, 4 and 5 handset replacements, and all have received handsets with the PS issue in return for handsets with the PS issue. If you believe your claim to be true, then explain why Apple are deliberately setting aside or manufacturing faulty handsets and giving them only to people who have faulty handsets?

Your data runs contrary to all the data previously presented to the forums, and contrary to the experiences of the board members and any form of logic that a company would specificly target customers with faulty goods. Therefore, your data must be flawed, either intentionally, or through poor research.

Again, full of errors ME. You are a master troll.

Let's go slow here in the hopes you can keep up -

1) Fact - Many, many, many people post here and elsewhere that they own IP4s that do NOT exhibit the PS issue. I've held several of these in my hand and 'researched' them to quite extensively. Again - If I use a device in the ways you yourself describe (long calls, moving the phone all around my head, holding it with my shoulder, etc.) and it never, not once activates the screen (let alone a button), then what is a reasonable person to think???

2) Fact - Many, many, many people post here and elsewhere that they own IP4s that DO exhibit the PS issue. I've held several of these in my hand too. Therefore I know there is an issue.

3) Beyond these, we KNOW nothing. We can suppose, and discuss, and guess, until we're blue in the face but you nor I KNOWS anything.

Here's what I believe - Apple is not intentionally trying to **** off their customers. I further believe that this issue (for those that have it) could be caused by either a faulty prox sensor, a faulty headset connector, a software glitch (and remember, separate builds for 3G, 3GS, and IP4 allows for the possibility of variations between these units) OR a combination of hardware and software.

I personally believe it to be software simply because a hardware fault at manufacturing time would have been found by now (except on planet ME where grand conspiracies rule the day).

All I've suggested is that IF it's a software problem, it could be a challenging one to solve. I know Apple is trying to solve it based on the fact that they have responded to my open defect (and others as well) asking for input and suggesting test scenarios.

Now please go back to trying to figure out who shot Kennedy or really brought down the WTCs.

bmwhd1 wrote:

mbassoc2003 wrote:

bmwhd1 wrote:
Should have known better than to try to add anything constructive to this conversation. In parting I will say to several of you that keep insisting this is a universal problem with all IP4s - IT IS NOT. I have a large collection of them in support at our office. I have several under test in our beta program as well. Out of all of those - one, exactly one, out of a dozen so far has exhibited the PS problem. Therefore I know it exists. However, the others - zip, zero, nada, never, not once, no problems, period.

You are the first person EVER on the forum to post that you have seen handsets that have the PS issue, and handsets that do not. And if I'm reading you right, you claim that in your experience, it's 1 in 12.

That begs the question... A lot of users here have gone through 3, 4 and 5 handset replacements, and all have received handsets with the PS issue in return for handsets with the PS issue. If you believe your claim to be true, then explain why Apple are deliberately setting aside or manufacturing faulty handsets and giving them only to people who have faulty handsets?

Your data runs contrary to all the data previously presented to the forums, and contrary to the experiences of the board members and any form of logic that a company would specificly target customers with faulty goods. Therefore, your data must be flawed, either intentionally, or through poor research.

Again, full of errors ME. You are a master troll.

Let's go slow here in the hopes you can keep up -

1) Fact - Many, many, many people post here and elsewhere that they own IP4s that do NOT exhibit the PS issue. I've held several of these in my hand and 'researched' them to quite extensively. Again - If I use a device in the ways you yourself describe (long calls, moving the phone all around my head, holding it with my shoulder, etc.) and it never, not once activates the screen (let alone a button), then what is a reasonable person to think???

2) Fact - Many, many, many people post here and elsewhere that they own IP4s that DO exhibit the PS issue. I've held several of these in my hand too. Therefore I know there is an issue.

3) Beyond these, we KNOW nothing. We can suppose, and discuss, and guess, until we're blue in the face but you nor I KNOWS anything.

Here's what I believe - Apple is not intentionally trying to **** off their customers. I further believe that this issue (for those that have it) could be caused by either a faulty prox sensor, a faulty headset connector, a software glitch (and remember, separate builds for 3G, 3GS, and IP4 allows for the possibility of variations between these units) OR a combination of hardware and software.

I personally believe it to be software simply because a hardware fault at manufacturing time would have been found by now (except on planet ME where grand conspiracies rule the day).

All I've suggested is that IF it's a software problem, it could be a challenging one to solve. I know Apple is trying to solve it based on the fact that they have responded to my open defect (and others as well) asking for input and suggesting test scenarios.

Now please go back to trying to figure out who shot Kennedy or really brought down the WTCs.

Excuse me ! You answering to me and you are answering the post from somebody else and quated someone else. Are you sure you really reading anything here ?!

6 of one, half a dozen of the other...

bmwhd1 wrote:

mbassoc2003 wrote:

bmwhd1 wrote:
Should have known better than to try to add anything constructive to this conversation. In parting I will say to several of you that keep insisting this is a universal problem with all IP4s - IT IS NOT. I have a large collection of them in support at our office. I have several under test in our beta program as well. Out of all of those - one, exactly one, out of a dozen so far has exhibited the PS problem. Therefore I know it exists. However, the others - zip, zero, nada, never, not once, no problems, period.

You are the first person EVER on the forum to post that you have seen handsets that have the PS issue, and handsets that do not. And if I'm reading you right, you claim that in your experience, it's 1 in 12.

That begs the question... A lot of users here have gone through 3, 4 and 5 handset replacements, and all have received handsets with the PS issue in return for handsets with the PS issue. If you believe your claim to be true, then explain why Apple are deliberately setting aside or manufacturing faulty handsets and giving them only to people who have faulty handsets?

Your data runs contrary to all the data previously presented to the forums, and contrary to the experiences of the board members and any form of logic that a company would specificly target customers with faulty goods. Therefore, your data must be flawed, either intentionally, or through poor research.

Again, full of errors ME. You are a master troll.

Let's go slow here in the hopes you can keep up -

1) Fact - Many, many, many people post here and elsewhere that they own IP4s that do NOT exhibit the PS issue. I've held several of these in my hand and 'researched' them to quite extensively. Again - If I use a device in the ways you yourself describe (long calls, moving the phone all around my head, holding it with my shoulder, etc.) and it never, not once activates the screen (let alone a button), then what is a reasonable person to think???

2) Fact - Many, many, many people post here and elsewhere that they own IP4s that DO exhibit the PS issue. I've held several of these in my hand too. Therefore I know there is an issue.

3) Beyond these, we KNOW nothing. We can suppose, and discuss, and guess, until we're blue in the face but you nor I KNOWS anything.

Here's what I believe - Apple is not intentionally trying to **** off their customers. I further believe that this issue (for those that have it) could be caused by either a faulty prox sensor, a faulty headset connector, a software glitch (and remember, separate builds for 3G, 3GS, and IP4 allows for the possibility of variations between these units) OR a combination of hardware and software.

I personally believe it to be software simply because a hardware fault at manufacturing time would have been found by now (except on planet ME where grand conspiracies rule the day).

All I've suggested is that IF it's a software problem, it could be a challenging one to solve. I know Apple is trying to solve it based on the fact that they have responded to my open defect (and others as well) asking for input and suggesting test scenarios.

Now please go back to trying to figure out who shot Kennedy or really brought down the WTCs.

Excuse me ! You answering to me and you are answering the post from somebody else and quoted someone else.

Are you sure you really reading anything here ?!

I never mentioned any conspiracy , i mention selling the device to people can not be used as a phone.
I also did not tell you that on some of your units you did not notice the PS problem do not exist. I argued your statistic 1 of 12 is bad , but you prefered your vague statments instead of responding to the points.
You want to start here calling the names. I am ready.
As long as we have developers like you who as you mentioned Apple pays money to and those who can not even read to whome they respond to and those who can not even understand what point we argue and address the subject , we probably never have the PS solved as long as such developers supplying the data to Apple.

You are definitely a better expert about WTS and Kennedy story , here is your zone.

chotty1 wrote:
6 of one, half a dozen of the other...

Sorry , may be this time I am not getting it . If you can please explain.

MichaelEmpire wrote:

chotty1 wrote:
6 of one, half a dozen of the other...

Sorry , may be this time I am not getting it . If you can please explain.

Michael - How much time do you dedicate to this forum? Do you have a day job or do you just spend all your life on here. You provide massive explanations to people who are intentionally trying to get you aggravated and you fall for it every time.

Maybe you could try and explain why you are such a c *?

MichaelEmpire wrote:

viewfly wrote:
I have 2 IP4's without PS problems. None of my previous 3G (3 in family) or 3GS had a PS problem either. I'm certain Apple knows how to make the PS work...since it has been part of the IP3 family for 3 years now.

I don't doubt that some have a problem...most like a faulty LED or photodiode sensor. But I think it must be a small percentage of the 3 million plus sold.

But one thing I'm also certain of...if you rest the iP4 between your shoulder ear...you will have problems. It is a proximity sensor after all...and holding the phone like that is not a 'proximity' situation. Also one has a high risk of dropping the phone ( besides the call). The sensor on my phone works only up to a range of about 1 inch. Resting on one's shoulder can be more than that..and vary a lot in distance. I think that is how the 3G worked too. It's possible that moving the sensor from the left of the speaker to on top...but I don't see that in my phones.

Better and safer to use speaker phone or the ear piece with microphone. It seems if you have a problem..Apple will give you a new one. But really don't expect it to work 'consistently' if held on the shoulder.

You definitely missing the main point here. Nobody is trying to hold the iphone 4 differently from the way we were all holding all other phones including 3GS. we not suppose just to become different users because someone make different phone. It is also not in the manual how should we hold the phone and how we should not.
The problem is people do hold the phone the same way as the used to hold the phones before and you directing them to change the habits.

Also The problem not only exist when you hold the phone with the shoulder but when you moving the phone during conversation and keep it too close to your face.

Not even mentioning the senor system has a certain algorithm and Not a simple measurement of the distance between the object and the phone.

I may be will surprise you but the proximity sensor is not as you think a "photodiode" . If you want to I can tell you what is the difference and the principal how does it work.

The PS is an active device and "photodiode" is passive devices , just to let you think in a right direction.

You misunderstood my post. The proximity sensor consists of a near infrared Light Emitting Diode (LED) and a photosensing element of some sorts (i.e. photodiode). You can see the LED for yourself by looking at the proximity sensor with a digital camera. You will see the purple like light come on with a call. It is located in the left most part of the PS. LIght that is scattered off of your skin is reflected back to the photosensing element...and software does the rest. It doesn't need to measure any distance...but it could. In any case it is set, on my IP4 to about 1 inch. I've read that some say the 3GS was about 2 inches. I will verify that with my old 3GS in a few days.

Here is a YouTube video showing a working IP4 and the 'working distance'. My point was if one holds the phone on one's shoulder ( or elsewhere), one can easily exceed that working distance for the PS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX7EPVDVEEg

My other point was that perhaps there are defective PS's out there. Here is another YouTube video of someone that indeed has a defective unit. If you read his comments, he returned the bad unit and it appears the new one is working fine.


IN FACT, you can see the problem in the video below: When the IP4 is working you can see the LED purple color above the speaker...in the video 2nd part, when it is NOT working...you do not see the LED. Clearly the LED is not working in this time...hence a PS FAIL.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm_qOzt2wuo


SO IT APPEARS IN THIS MAN'S CASE...IT IS AN INTERMITTENT FAILURE OF THE LED LIGHT SOURCE...A HARDWARE PROBLEM ON SOME PHONES...BUT NOT ALL.


My other point is that if one replaces 4 or 5 and still has problems...most likely, but not 100%, they are trying to get the PS to work in situations that it was not designed for.


P.S.: you really need to proof read your posts.

Message was edited by: viewfly

@bhwmd1 - You deliberately missed the point of the post to further your own rant. The point is, everyone so far who has experienced PS issues, has experienced PS issues on ALL iPhones they have received in exchenge, or tested/borrowed from friends. Your premis is that every single person with faulty a iP4 somehow has friends, local stores and local store replacement stock that is faulty in it's entirity, because, somehow, by magic, every one of these users seems to only ever come into contact with faulty phones.

On the flip side of this, and by your own admittion, there are millions of people who do not have the PS issue, and somehow, as if by magic, they only come into contact with iP4s that do not have the PS issue. You being the single sole exception.

How can you explain why users with the PS issue only ever get phones or borrow phones with PS issues, and users without PS issues cannot find or recreate the PS issue on handsets? The only logical explanation is that the PS issue is a user initiated flaw similar to the antenna issue that is present on all handsets and only affects certain people based on their usage.

Unless you wish to claim that Apple have faulty LED sensors and have specially put aside faulty stock to continue to p!ss off users who have a PS issue?

Your data and preposition is pure bulls't and cannot even be extrapolated from the facts you have access to, without even taking on board the data supplied by people here, the vast majority of whom have no agenda other than to get their frustrations off their chests. The people here are not lying of providing false information. When a guy had been given 5 or 6 handsets that are ALL exhibiting a PS issue, he is not being 'unlucky' and always receiving faulty handsets. When a guy knows dosens of other people all of whom have the same problems on their phones, he is not 'unlucky' and only know losers. The fact that the overwhelming majority of users of this board do agree upon is that the PS issue is present on all handsets and it is the design of that handset that is the cause.

Software/hardware and fixable/unfixable are all debatable and Apple ultimately will have the say on that. But your entire post is bullsh't.