Administrator can't change disk permissions Ventura 13.6

Jason Parker wrote:

I was maintaining yesterday those permissions were “fixed” and on restart… poof. There went my ability to use my laptop. No idea really.

Can you provide more details about what this "maintaining" was that you were doing?

There are multiple things going on here.

1) As others have said, Apple changed the format of it file system a long time ago. It is just crazy complicated. To try to simplify it somewhat, just think in terms of the system and data volume.

You have no control over the system volume. Apple owns that. Your data resides on the data volume where you can make changes.

2) Did I mention that it was complicated? Sorry, I didn't fully explain. It's more complicated than that. Apple then magically "fuses" the system and data volumes back together into a fake volume. You have virtually no control over the root directory of this fake volume. (See "synthetic links" for the one exception.) And there are a few additional layers of complexity that I won't even bother mentioning here because they aren't relevant.

3) I can't speak to your interactions with Apple Support. I don't know what they were looking at. For one thing, it's rare that anyone ever looks at permissions, so I could totally understand if they didn't know anything. They're just tech support, after all. On the other hand, in your post after having upgraded to Sonoma, your data looks much more interesting. So I don't know if you were talking to support about the read-only system files, which is totally normally and expected, or your funky permissions on user files, which are not normal at all.

4) Normally, when looking at permissions for things like Desktop, Documents, Movies, and Pictures, you do have read and write access. Furthermore, you are identified. It should say "admin (Me)" with read and write permissions. It also shouldn't list "system" at all for these files. Your entire permissions are totally scrambled. So that's what's going on.

And that brings me back around to this "maintaining" that you mentioned. Are you running any kind of "clean up", "maintenance", "app zapper", system modification, system hack, or "security" apps of any kind? I mean anything? If so, that's the most likely cause. Had you enabled the "root" user at any point? That might do it too.

Regardless, there is no point in wasting time with it anymore. Erase the hard drive and reinstall the operating system. I don't know if your backup can be trusted. You'll have to recover your data files from backup manually. When you copy them back over, they should have the correct permissions. For other, database things like Mail, etc. you'll have to resync from the internet. In the future, I strongly recommend iCloud for syncing files. Time Machine is great for backup, but if you really scramble your system like this, then your backup will be scrambled too. In these cases, and for a few other reasons, iCloud is actually better than Time Machine any time there are mysterious problems like this. Time Machine works great, but it will backup problems along with everything else.

And lastly, never ever assume that an upgrade is going to magically fix any problem. That never happens. It will only cause new ones. If your current system is working great, then there is really no need to upgrade. If you have problems, upgrades will only make your problems worse. But if your current system is working great, and there are some neat new features in Sonoma that you really want, then by all means, do the upgrade. But even in this case, I don't recommend being an early adopter. It will be a non-stop exercise of updates until macOS 15 is released.

In macOS Catalina, the operating system was split into 2 volumes. A read-only volume where macOS lives and many of the applications shipped with macOS. And a read/write "Data" volume where all your files live, as well as any files that macOS needs to write, or allow you to modify (System wide preferences, log files, caches, etc...).

This split means it is extremely difficult for malware to insert itself into the operating system, and easier for the macOS built-in anti-malware components to detect and eliminate malware.

The root directory '/' (aka Macintosh HD) is on the read-only macOS boot volume.

The '/System' directory is also on the read-only macOS boot volume.

'/Users' is on the is a mixed breed. It has a directory on the read-only volume, but it also has a Synthetic Link to the /System/Volumes/Data volume.

So you can added, remove, and rename entries in the /Users directory, but changing its permissions is blocked as that would also affect the half of the directory on the read-only volume.

man synthetic.conf

can provide some information about synthetic links, and then you can Google "synthetic link", but you do have to do a lot of digging to find anything useful about synthetic links.

You should have no restrictions on anything within your own home user folder....at least in regards to Desktop, Documents, and Downloads folders. I believe there are no restrictions anywhere else within your home user folder, but cannot say for sure because I don't try to modify anything except in those locations and on the root of my home user folder (I avoid the iTunes/Music and Pictures locations as much as possible since Apple does a lot of management within those locations). iCloud or other cloud file syncing services could impose other restrictions on folders within your home user folder.

You should also have access to the "/Users/Shared" folder as well if you want to share items between different macOS user accounts on that Mac.

I perform no maintenance on my Macs except for clearing out old unneeded files to free up storage space, or to modify my directory/folder layout. My Mac just keeps running fine without doing anything else. Any other "maintenance" I do is from time to time is to clear the cache & downloads area from my browser since the browser seems to need a nudge in that area at times, but I only do this through official option in the menus which the browser provides just for that purpose. I do not manually try to locate those items to delete as that may be dangerous to the stability of the app.

From reading these forums for years now, anti-virus apps, cleaning/optimizer apps, and third party security software all seem to have negative effects on macOS since they are designed to interfere with the normal operation of macOS. Sooner or later a user utilizing these types of apps will run into a problem which can cripple the Mac, it is usually only a matter of time. I bet over 50% of the support requests on these forums involve issues with these types of apps.....usually once they are uninstalled, the users' issues magically disappear. You may want to review this excellent article written by a respected forum contributor:

Effective defenses against malware and other threats - Apple Community

If you want full control over your computer, then you are using the wrong OS....macOS is not it. And security and restrictions are only going to get tighter as time goes on. I'm waiting for the day when an Apple computer becomes a glorified iPad (no I don't want that, but I think that is what will happen eventually)...you certainly don't have much control over an iPad or iPhone.

Here are two Apple articles regarding the new drive layouts beginning with macOS 10.15 Catalina, and also additional changes made beginning with macOS 11.x Big Sur:

About the read-only system volume in macOS Catalina or later - Apple Support

Signed system volume security in iOS, iPadOS, and macOS - Apple Support

Here is an Apple article regarding a firmware "Restore" procedure for Apple Silicon Macs which utilizes DFU Mode on an Apple Silicon Mac:

Revive or restore a Mac with Apple silicon using Apple Configurator - Apple Support

Jason Parker wrote:

These are my regular maintenance apps that I run every few months.

You don't need to do any maintenance.

I’m on my fifth wipe and reinstall os now.

Why?

I’m hoping my June Time Machine Backup will overwrite whatever I wrecked.

At this point, a backup from June is just an archive. Whatever you are doing, you are wasting your time.

Normally I would just recommend that you erase the hard drive and reinstall the operating system. But you said you've done that 5 times already? It sounds like there are additional details that we don't know about. Erasing the hard drive and reinstalling the operating system is an extreme response, but it is final. It is extremely unusual for that to fail. If it does fail "for some reason", then a DFU will always succeed.

"for some reason" is some detail that you haven't mentioned. For example, the last time I had some crazy problem with my Mac it was because I had tried to install multiple boot volumes. In theory, Apple supports that. And it does work, more or less. But Apple really doesn't test or support it. That's why iCloud wouldn't work with that configuration. It's these kinds of little details that you think don't matter that just might be very important.

You cannot change those. Did Apple Support somehow convey that you should be able to?

Changing the permissions on those folders would have no effect on your user losing admin capability.

Jason Parker wrote:

• I've recovered with my Time Machine backup from June and have solve the problem.

But it's from June. If you've lost that much data, it seems like it would be a good idea to have a fresh start.

• I do need to do maintenance on my computer but appreciate your process, thank you.

Maybe you do, but your computer doesn't need anything. It is designed to take care of itself.

• I don't know what a DFU is, but would love to add it to my troubleshooting process if you're able to provide a link. I'd love a 100% successful resolution on hand.

Revive or restore a Mac with Apple silicon using Apple Configurator - Apple Support

Please see the thread above where I go into as much detail as I can provide about this issue. The first two wipe and restores were recommended by Apple tech support.

Sometimes people can be "unreliable narrators". 😄

I said erase and reinstall. I make a point to warn you about doing a restore. A single erase and reinstall would definitively fixed the problem.

I know you've said they're just tech support, but they're the ones I initially rely on for expertise, the "geniuses" as it were.

When it comes to the "Genius Bar", the "Genius" is a trademark, not a description.

It's been that way since Big Sur, maybe Catalina.

The system is locked down.

Besides the failed attempt to fix your admin status, why do you believe you need to change those permissions?

You should be able to change your home folder permissions. There is something wrong for them to have the owner set to System.

The admin group is quite odd. Did you apply to enclosed from outside your home?