butterfly keyboard legacy

I'm planning to buy a used 2017 MacBook Pro from a reputable online dealer that I have bought from previously.


I've just learned that the specific MBP I am considering (MPXQ2LL) has the butterfly keyboard, which I understand has been a significant problem for some users, though I've never known the details.


Other than that, the specs and price align well with my needs at a relatively low price, and being a 2017, it has two key advantages:


• it will support Ventura while the 2015 and 2016 will not, so it will have a longer useful life for me based on operating systems,

and...

• flash storage is not soldered in.


But then, there's that potential big disadvantage: The Keyboard.


Can anyone provide any well informed perspective on how much of a problem I might have - if any - from the butterfly keyboard? Evidently the issues are common enough to have become more of a widespread legacy.


First of all, what exactly IS the problem with the butterfly keyboard? And how widespread were (are?) the issues?


Is this a kind of thing where – now that it's several years old – if the keyboard was going to be a problem, that problem would have already appeared?


Or does age and especially usage mean that the butterfly keyboard is increasingly likely to fail sometime?


The online seller implied that the "feel and sound of the keys" is different and maybe undesirable. Would that rise to the level of being a real problem?


And can the problem be repaired for a reasonable cost by authorized Mac repair shops?


I'll be grateful for any thoughts. Thanks all!

MacBook, OS X 10.11

Posted on Apr 4, 2024 10:58 PM

Reply
Question marked as Top-ranking reply

Posted on Apr 5, 2024 10:35 PM

Personally I would avoid the MBPro 2017 non-touchbar model.


If the Top Case Assembly was ever replaced, then the keyboard may be a bit better than the original from the factory, but it is still susceptible to the design & manufacturing defects.


The SSD on this model has a much higher rate of failure than any other Apple laptop. So if it fails are you prepared to pay OWC for a replacement SSD since I think they are the only vendor with an SSD for this laptop?


Another cost consideration is the condition of the battery. Unless the battery has been replaced recently, that is likely another cost you will incur sometime soon. Plus just because the battery condition is "Normal" does not mean the battery is actually healthy and the Apple Diagnostics won't always detect a bad cell within the battery. An official Apple battery repair is $250 US (does include a new Top Case Assembly which gives you a new keyboard as well). There are third party batteries available from OWC & iFixIt, but this is not easy to do yourself...in fact OWC recommends professional installation which would put the cost close to Apple's cost when including labor.


This laptop is also susceptible to the manufacturing & design flaw for the Display cable which is the same display used on the 2016 model which Apple had a free repair program to address backlight cable issues.


And finally perhaps the most important issue remaining which few people even realize is an issue.....the USB-C ports on this model are an integrated part of the Logic Board. This is bad because the USB-C ports tend to become very loose on the 2016-2017 models due to another design flaw. The ports have small nubs that are supposed to help lock the USB-C cables, but these nubs are just made from the fiberglass board which are easily worn down each time a USB-C cable is connected & disconnected from the laptop. Loose ports mean your charging cable & accessories can be easily dislodged causing intermittent connections which can prevent charging & perhaps corrupt external drives. The 2018+ models actually have an improved design where the edges of the ports are reinforced with metal edging.


You may then think a 2018-2020 Intel Mac would be a good choice. I personally would avoid them because the Logic Boards on those T2 systems tend to have a higher rate of failure (the 2019 models more so with the 16" 2019 with the highest rate). And you still have the dreaded butterfly keyboards on the 2019 models.


My organization hasn't had enough Apple Silicon M-series Macs yet to see how they compare, but I think they would make the most economical sense.


Whenever you buy a used Mac, you need to make sure that it is not still being managed by a previous owner. We see so many people posting on this forum about finding out their used Mac is still being controlled by a previous owner since the Mac was never properly prepared for resale. Sometimes it can be hard to tell since it can take days or even weeks sometimes before you may see a notification pop up about it.


With an Intel Mac you also have to be sure there is no firmware password lock enabled.


Even if there are no firmware locks and the Mac has been properly prepared for sale, you do have a risk of being completely locked out of your used Mac since you would not be able to provide adequate proof of ownership required by Apple to remove any firmware lock or activation locks if they somehow became accidentally enabled. Just something else to consider.


Even if the seller has properly prepared the Mac for sale, I always recommend that people should perform their own clean install of macOS just to be certain it was done correctly plus it may end up revealing a firmware lock or possible management by the previous owner still being enabled.


And make sure you always have frequent and regular backups since there are so many new ways of permanently losing access to the data on the internal SSD due to all the hardware, software, and security changes. These days, there is very little hope of any data recovery except by restoring from a backup.

Use Time Machine to back up - Apple Support



Similar questions

4 replies
Question marked as Top-ranking reply

Apr 5, 2024 10:35 PM in response to tytoalbaow

Personally I would avoid the MBPro 2017 non-touchbar model.


If the Top Case Assembly was ever replaced, then the keyboard may be a bit better than the original from the factory, but it is still susceptible to the design & manufacturing defects.


The SSD on this model has a much higher rate of failure than any other Apple laptop. So if it fails are you prepared to pay OWC for a replacement SSD since I think they are the only vendor with an SSD for this laptop?


Another cost consideration is the condition of the battery. Unless the battery has been replaced recently, that is likely another cost you will incur sometime soon. Plus just because the battery condition is "Normal" does not mean the battery is actually healthy and the Apple Diagnostics won't always detect a bad cell within the battery. An official Apple battery repair is $250 US (does include a new Top Case Assembly which gives you a new keyboard as well). There are third party batteries available from OWC & iFixIt, but this is not easy to do yourself...in fact OWC recommends professional installation which would put the cost close to Apple's cost when including labor.


This laptop is also susceptible to the manufacturing & design flaw for the Display cable which is the same display used on the 2016 model which Apple had a free repair program to address backlight cable issues.


And finally perhaps the most important issue remaining which few people even realize is an issue.....the USB-C ports on this model are an integrated part of the Logic Board. This is bad because the USB-C ports tend to become very loose on the 2016-2017 models due to another design flaw. The ports have small nubs that are supposed to help lock the USB-C cables, but these nubs are just made from the fiberglass board which are easily worn down each time a USB-C cable is connected & disconnected from the laptop. Loose ports mean your charging cable & accessories can be easily dislodged causing intermittent connections which can prevent charging & perhaps corrupt external drives. The 2018+ models actually have an improved design where the edges of the ports are reinforced with metal edging.


You may then think a 2018-2020 Intel Mac would be a good choice. I personally would avoid them because the Logic Boards on those T2 systems tend to have a higher rate of failure (the 2019 models more so with the 16" 2019 with the highest rate). And you still have the dreaded butterfly keyboards on the 2019 models.


My organization hasn't had enough Apple Silicon M-series Macs yet to see how they compare, but I think they would make the most economical sense.


Whenever you buy a used Mac, you need to make sure that it is not still being managed by a previous owner. We see so many people posting on this forum about finding out their used Mac is still being controlled by a previous owner since the Mac was never properly prepared for resale. Sometimes it can be hard to tell since it can take days or even weeks sometimes before you may see a notification pop up about it.


With an Intel Mac you also have to be sure there is no firmware password lock enabled.


Even if there are no firmware locks and the Mac has been properly prepared for sale, you do have a risk of being completely locked out of your used Mac since you would not be able to provide adequate proof of ownership required by Apple to remove any firmware lock or activation locks if they somehow became accidentally enabled. Just something else to consider.


Even if the seller has properly prepared the Mac for sale, I always recommend that people should perform their own clean install of macOS just to be certain it was done correctly plus it may end up revealing a firmware lock or possible management by the previous owner still being enabled.


And make sure you always have frequent and regular backups since there are so many new ways of permanently losing access to the data on the internal SSD due to all the hardware, software, and security changes. These days, there is very little hope of any data recovery except by restoring from a backup.

Use Time Machine to back up - Apple Support



Apr 5, 2024 4:40 AM in response to tytoalbaow

I have the butterfly keyboard, I unfortunately didn't know apple was offering free replacements at the time. I'm able to do university assignments etc. without any problems. My only issues is having repeating letters on the 'n' key, and the 'b' getting stuck every now and then. Although when typing, I automatically backspace on n's and hit the b harder, so I don't notice.

It's up to you if the potential issues like this is a deal breaker. If you're able to work it into how you type or if it'll annoy you. This is also assuming the problems will happen.

The repairs vary depending where you live.

Apr 5, 2024 11:27 PM in response to HWTech

Thank you for this very thorough reply.


That said, what you wrote is extremely discouraging. You describe such a multitude of bad issues that I'm wondering what was going on at Apple with one its most important and best selling products over a 5 year span.


It's late, so I've not fully digested your answer, but will study it more fully tomorrow.


Again, I am grateful for your reply.


--Tyto

Apr 6, 2024 12:42 PM in response to HWTech

@HWTech


Again, thank you for your thorough and well expressed reply. It is illuminating, to say the least.


Suddenly, my 2011 MB Pro is just fine ;-).


My main motivator for upgrading was that a few websites I often use are no longer compatible with Safari. That's mostly online banking, and Craigslist, which I can also do on my primary machine, a MacPro. So for now, I'll rely on Ugly-Clumsy Chrome, or FireFlop, as long as they are supported on my current MBP. Would rather spend my money on road trips wandering California and the west, than on latest & greatest electronic devices.


But still, I am curious why you seemed to qualify your advice by citing the Touch Bar:

Personally I would avoid the MBPro 2017 non-touchbar model.


Knowing nothing about the touch bar, I watched two online youtube demos. Ho-hum...unnecessary for my purposes.


As it is, I rarely use the function keys on my MBP except for volume, and screen brightness. But I DO use F keys heavily on my MacPro, mainly for Photoshop actions which I use repeatedly when processing images from a photo shoot.


I can see how someone whose ONLY computer is a laptop, or whose life revolves around playing with all the features of the Mac for its own sake, the Touch Bar could be an essential feature, or a fun toy. For me, not so much.


That is...unless the Touch Bar models are otherwise somehow different from the non-touchbar models, in a way that dodges the issues you raised for the used 2017 MBP I had been considering. I didn't detect that in your comments. Are they different?


Otherwise, your cautions about the battery, fragile USB ports, and control by a previous owner, are well taken. OK, sobering.


The battery in my current machine is indeed a likely issue, and one which was disclosed by the previous (private party) owner. She had mostly used it for note taking in med-school classes, running heavily on the battery. And now the machine runs down a bit quicker than a fresh one. But that's very rarely an issue for me because I use it mostly at my desk so it's plugged in. For road trips, I now have a small portable power station to recharge in the middle of nowhere.


So I'll put this upgrade mission on hold for now, solving my problem by using alternate browsers on my current MBP, and go just as long as I can with the old OS. Then sometime later I'll look at used laptops that are newer than the ones with the butterfly keyboard and the other issues you mentioned.


I appreciate the insight you offered, and am grateful for your detailed reply. Thank you.


--Tyto





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