Airplay on old Apple TV

capaho wrote:

Now, enlighten us, if you will, on how different the AirPlay - again, I'm talking about the audio stream part of it - is from the good ol' AirTunes, and I'll rest my case.

Enlightenment requires freeing oneself from erroneous beliefs. You seem to think that AirTunes and AirPlay are the same simply because they both facilitate audio streams. That is precisely why I said you don't understand the technology you are arguing about.

The ATV1 software would require an upgrade to support AirPlay (assuming the ATV1 hardware can support it), and I just don't see that happening for a device that's been obsoleted (as I've said dozens of times before).

Enlightenment means you telling us why they aren't the same. So you could actually show us some facts before defending Apple without any evidence on what you're saying.

Second, I don't believe in the need of a software upgrade in order to make Apple TV 1 AirPlay compatible, for the same reason that Airport Express didn't need one, which, actually, is my point that they are one and the same thing (that is, AirTunes and AirPlay).

Enlightenment means you telling us why they aren't the same.

You didn't read through this thread very carefully before you started posting.

Second, I don't believe in the need of a software upgrade in order to make Apple TV 1 AirPlay compatible....

So you believe it's already compatible, thus AirPlay will work with it. Problem solved.

1) what method does AppleTV 2 use to authorize with iTunes and other devices.. Answer: Home Sharing
2) what method does iOS devices use to authorise other devices.. Answer: Home Sharing
3) AirportExpress doesn't use any method to authorize.. maybe it's a data stream so the file isn't actualy being transfered so there is not issue.. in any case no authorization is or ever has been necessary..
4) what method does AppleTV 1 use to authorize with iTunes.. the PIN.. linking method.. AppleTV 1 doesn't support home sharing.. and i think that's the problem.. that's apple method of authorization going forward and appleTV 1 doesn't have it..


so now do you understand why an AirportExpress could require no update and an AppleTV 1 would require it? it would seem that home sharing would need to added to appleTV 1 to protect content and apple is apparently not doing any more updates to appleTV 1.

Interesting discovery: AppleTV 1 DOES support AirPlay!

When remote controlling the AppleTV 1 using the Remote App, there is a little button available which when clicked opens a screen titled "AirPlay". In this screen I can select remote speakers, such as Airport Express… and then AppleTV 1 streams to them. Yes AppleTV 1 streams, not the iOS device. In fact, it has had that capability before, but it was called AirTunes until recently. Now it's called AirPlay.

So how come AirPlay is available on AppleTV 1, although AppleTV 1 has not received an update? Hmmmm… maybe because AirPlay audio streaming and AirTunes audio streaming is one and the same thing and the functionality was simply renamed? 🙂

Whatever, I don't really care anymore. My AppleTV 1 goes on ebay today and I'm not buying a newer device from a company that obviously screws consumers. I'm getting an LG player instead. Modern home electronics all support DLNA which allows you to stream audio, video, pictures and whatever from anywhere to anywhere. Much more flexible than the intentionally crippled Apple stuff with its annoying artificial limitations (there are more than this particular one which have bothered me for quite some time). Oh, and I'm gonna buy my music from Amazon now. It's cheaper than iTunes (at least in my country) and just as good. Problem solved.

again.. you're completely out in left field here.. we're talking iOS to appleTV 1.. not appleTV 1 to other devices..

airportExpress doesn't require to be authorized.. never has.. maybe it's not actually transfering the file just sending a data stream (speculation).. in any case comparing an airportExpress to an appleTV is not relevant..

what method do iOS devices use to authorize other devices? they uses homeshare.. does appleTV 1 support home share? NO.. and a software upgrade would be needed for it to do so..

tmartine wrote:

3) AirportExpress doesn't use any method to authorize.. maybe it's a data stream so the file isn't actualy being transfered so there is not issue.. in any case no authorization is or ever has been necessary..
4) what method does AppleTV 1 use to authorize with iTunes.. the PIN.. linking method.. AppleTV 1 doesn't support home sharing.. and i think that's the problem.. that's apple method of authorization going forward and appleTV 1 doesn't have it..

I don't know if that's the case. You see, I turned home sharing off, and I can still stream stuff. I think that the home sharing is a service more suited to, well, share stuff. The AirPlay has more to do with streaming.

It seems that the authorization is just something you may or may not enable, but I haven't tested.

capaho wrote:

Enlightenment means you telling us why they aren't the same.

You didn't read through this thread very carefully before you started posting.

Oh, I did. I saw how the "bug" theory (just a theory) was thrown up here. I read how contradictory your explanations were.

Second, I don't believe in the need of a software upgrade in order to make Apple TV 1 AirPlay compatible....

So you believe it's already compatible, thus AirPlay will work with it. Problem solved.

Irony is always a very smart way of answering.

Thing is, you said before:

+"It isn't actually that simple. AirPlay is a feature of iOS, something the ATV2, iPod, iPhone and iPad have in common. The ATV1, however, runs a stripped down version of OS X Tiger.+

+You simply don't understand how the technology (and the technology business) works. The processor, architecture and OS between the two are completely different. AirPlay only works between iOS devices, it doesn't work with Macs any more than it does with the ATV1.+

+That problem has already been thoroughly discussed in numerous threads in these forums. Based on Apple's own documentation, it is most likely the result of an AirPlay bug in iOS that will hopefully be fixed in a future iOS update. "+

They just contradict what you said, in so many ways.

1 - AirPlay is not "just an iOS service". iTunes does it. Or since when streaming video to an AppleTV 2 was part of AirTunes?

2 - Apple own documentation stated that AppleTV 1st gen supported AirPlay. Either iOS devices support 2 services - AirPlay and AirTunes - or one is an improvement over the other one.

3 - The "bug" theory just would explain what was said: AirPlay is just a form of AirTunes. Worked on Airport Express. Either iOS supports AirTunes AND AirPlay, or the latter is an reincarnation of the former. The "bug" would just confirm that. Either that, or Airport Express suddenly became an iOS device and nobody told us.

some history..

Apple documentation was initially quite ambiguous as to whether it was supported on appleTV 1 or not.. then the documentation was changed to explicitly state that it wasn't supported on appleTV 1

it may or may not be a bug that apple is not interested in fixing since there is really no economic benefit in it for them and the doc was changed to reflect this..
OR
it could have never been their intention to support it and the bug was in the documentation and that has since been corrected..

iOS doesn't seem to be able to stream to OS X (i.e. to Macs AND appleTV 1) for some reason.. a hack has been floating about enabling this, but this does seem to be something that required more code (i.e. not automatic) on the OS X side of things.. remember today iOS cannot stream to Macs either of which the appleTV 1 is...

more code requires resource away from features and devices that will actually bring in revenue.. requires testing resources, documentation resources, support resources etc.. it would be nice but i just don't see the upside for Apple.. i have an AppleTV.. still have it hooked up so i can do iTunes purchases (can purchase and watch/listen as download unlike iTunes on computer).. got 3yrs out of it and a tonne of updates.. i'm not hating on Apple for retiring a 4yr old product.. especially when the new one is $99..

Capaho, let me explain how I feel it all works. tell me if you disagree with anything.

Apple originally created an audio only streaming protocol called Airtunes. This was created for the Apple Airport Express with it's audio out port so that iTunes could stream audio to a hifi unit or somesuch. This did not require Homesharing or anything like that. I think it simply appeared as a set of "iTunes Speakers" in the drop-down menu on the bottom right of iTunes. Itunes basically converted whatever your audio was to Apple Lossless and streamed that to the Airport Express which send it out of it's audio connection.

Apple later provided a software upgrade to the AppleTV (the only one then available, but what we now call Gen1) to provide compatibility with AirTunes. ie so you could stream from iTunes to either the Airport Extreme or the AppleTV. This works in the same way as the Airport Express and indeed, my is configured with no access control so anyone on my network can stream to it with no authentication.

This all worked fine and people were happy.

A few years later, Steve announces iOS4 and all the great stuff that came with it, including airplay. He stated that this would enable audio and video streaming from an iDevice to an AppleTV. At the time, there only was one and no-one knew about the ATV2 thus many of us thought it would work with our original ATV's.

Apple then released the ATV2 and it was later determined that full-on audio and video Airplay would only work with the ATV2. There was some documentation that audio-only would work with the ATV1 but this was later changed.

I think all the above is roughly correct, though I might be wrong on which iOS version Airplay was announced for. Do we agree with the above?

I think that AirPlay is merely an extension to the older AirTunes protocol to include video, but actually whether it is or is not is irrelevant.

We know for a fact that an iPhone can stream audio and video to an AppleTV2. this is not under debate.

We know for a fact that an iPhone can stream audio only to an Airport Express. I do not believe this to be under debate.

The Airport Express did not require any firmware update to support AirPlay. Thus it seems to me that the iPhone absolutely must support AirTunes. Do we agree on this? If it did not support AirTunes then it could not recognise and stream audio to an Airport Express.

It may be that the iPhone recognises the capabilities of the Airport Express and sends it the audio in the older AirTunes protocol, or that AirPlay has backwards compatibility with an older version of the protocol. Whatever, it doesn't matter. the point is that the iPhone must support it for an Airport Express to be a valid sink for audio streaming.

What then is the difference with the AppleTV's version of AirTunes. Why not support it on the 1st Gen ATV? I don't buy this iOS vs OSX business because network protocols are explicitly designed to avoid this very issue.

The fact is that the iPhone supports AirTunes as well as AirPlay but I believe it explicitly decides not to list ATVGen1's as compatible AirPlay sink's for audio.

I don't expect them to update the 1st Gen ATV to full video sharing AirPlay (though I do think the box is perfectly capable of it). but I do resent the audio only functionality not working as this seems to be an intentional decision to not support it.

My personal suspicion is that it was originally intended to stream audio to the ATVGen1 but that there was some minor bug that prevented it from working properly. I suspect Apple could easily have fixed the bug but that they deemed it was not in their interests to expend any time at all doing so, so added a quick bit of code to delete ATVGen1's from the AirPlay list. I think they forgot the support document listing the ATVGen1 as being supported and then went and edited it later when people kicked up a fuss.

So, do you disagree with anything I've said above. have I mis-stated anything or said anything factually incorrect? Do you think I've made any incorrect assumptions or leaps of faith? I'm asking honestly as we seem to be at complete cross purposes here. You think I'm insane for expecting this to work, and I think you're insane for thinking it's an acceptable situation.

Where have I gone wrong? by the logic I have stated above, I can't see any real, compelling reason why iOS could not stream to an AppleTV Gen 1 apart form the fact that they'd rather we bought an ATV2

David

heh, replying to myself here.

I just installed the RemoteHD patch mentioned in the firecore link and it enables video/audio airplay streaming from my iphone to my Gen 1 AppleTV! I've tested it with my Digital Copy of Watchmen, a video of my wife skiing and the kings of Leon video that came as part of the 12 days of christmas itunes app. works fine. youtube app works fine. picture sharing works but seems a little buggy.

Interestingly, it only supports video/audio at the moment, and not audio only streaming! ie I can't stream audio from the ipod app, but they claim this is coming soon.

This shows that all the kit is perfectly compatible, it just needed someone to do it. it's just a shame apple aren't stepping up to the plate to enable it without having to hack your ATV.

This shows that all the kit is perfectly compatible, it just needed someone to do it. it's just a shame apple aren't stepping up to the plate to enable it without having to hack your ATV.

It is not unusual for a company to stop upgrading a product once it has released a newer model, and it's also not unusual for a third-party developer to come up with a software patch like this. The fact that it requires the installation of a software hack to work provides ample evidence that the ATV1 software itself is not AirPlay compatible.

In any case, perhaps this third-party solution will be enough to mollify those who are bemoaning the lack of AirPlay support in the native ATV1 software.

ew... I read, re-read... really confusing directions. I'm still not sure how to follwo them. I finally figureed out that you have to install software on a USB flash drive?

Then downloaded the something called "atvusb-creator-1.0.b13" and tried over and over to get it to install on the flashdrive.... 6th attempt success! Plug it into AppleTV's USB.. had to do it 3x's... finally installed. Now I have something called "Launcher" in my menu.. and under it XBMC, Boxee (which scares me... did that once b4 and it totally screwed up my AppleTV) downloads and other stuff.

How do I find the pluggin?

The easiest part of this was buying the app in iTunes.. then scary stuff. Very poorly written instructions. Anyone that could help me move closer to success?

yes, the instructions aren't great, but they do work.

check this page: http://www.remotehd.com/AppleTV/Support#gettingStarted

then follow the instructions from "Use your preferred SSH client". you can easily use the OSX terminal program in Applications/utilities to do this.

type: ssh frontrow@appletv.local
it may ask you to confirm this host, type "yes" (no quotes obviously). It'll then ask for a password and it's "frontrow"

then enter in these lines one by one, letting each finish. cutting and pasting them is easiest. Again, it may ask you to confirm the host, type "yes", and if it asks for a password, then use "frontrow"

scp ssh.remotehd.com:RemoteHelper.tar RemoteHelper.tar
tar xvf RemoteHelper.tar
./install-RemoteHelper

this then installs the software that RemoteHD needs. actually I'm not sure if you need the app as I think all the work is in the software you just installed on the ATV.

anyway, once it's installed and rebooted, then go and play a video and see if the airplay icon appears. if so, tap it and select your appletv.

You have to first purchase some software that gets installed on a usb stick to plug into the AppleTV to install.

Then purchase the RemoteHD from iTunes.

You then have to use a SSH program to log into the Apple TV and send certain commands to the AppleTV so that can download the RemoteHD software and installs, then connect the ipod,ipad or iphone up to the AppleTV and thats it.

capaho:
I don't think the bug theory has been laid to rest. I still think it is a bug, just one that apple can't be bothered to fix because it's easier to just change the docs and tell people to buy a new appletv.

I would also argue that the quoted webpage "clearly states that AirPlay is a component of iOS" AirPlay is just a protocol like AirTunes, ****, like HTTP and IMAP. iOS supports that protocol but there's nothing inherent in the protocol that makes it iOS only.

Also, few people are asking apple to make the ATV gen 1 compatible with AirPlay (though it's quite obviously more than capable). what they, and indeed I are asking for is official support for Airtunes from the iPhone to the AppleTV Gen 1. I also don't think it's too much to ask.

As I stated in my earlier post, the iPhone clearly supports AirTunes otherwise it would not be able to stream to an Airport Express. Is there anything in my earlier post you disagreed with?