DO NOT UPGRADE TO LION!

If I can give my two cents...

I've upgraded to Lion in July, after a testdrive in February.

I had to reinstall from scratch, because it was f*** slow, and the best advices I've found were to have a clean install. Fine.

Then I've bought 8Go of fresh RAM, because I've read that 4Go were not enough. Fine.

Now, I still have memory leak with Safari. My 8Go are quickly used because Safari can use up to 5Go with few tabs opened, and I have to quit apps to free some RAM (I NEVER had to do it on Snow Leopard, with half the memory I have now).

Lion has a lot of bugs, and no one at Apple really cares. We are at the end January, 5 months after the release and two updates. Still the same. Apple used to respond faster before...

Two big bugs I've noticed that annoy me daily:

1. I'm using desktops a lot. Finder is attached to desktop 1, Safari too, and I have my developper apps on another desktop. When I switch to the finder from another desktop using alt+tab, instead of focusing the finder window, it focused the desktop. How many times I switched then cmd+A and cmd+delete, and deleted files on the desktop instead of the files in the folder selected in the finder window!!! Serious bug.
2. I have Mail, iCal, Address Book on desktop 5. When I switch, still using alt+tab, from desktop 1 to Mail, most of the time, Mail is focused (dark gray), but the window on the foreground is iCal or Address Book. This bug is also really annoying because alt+tab has always be the quicker way to switch though apps and it worked perfectly until Lion

Things that have disapeared who know why:

1. Option to have small icons in the finder toolbar. WHY?
2. Remove items from the sidebar just by dragging the item (since Snow Leopard 10.6.8, ok, but WHY?)

Inconsistencies:

1. When you use Quick Look on a PDF file, thumbnails are still on the right side (yeah!) but on Preview, they're on the left side (booooh) and you CAN'T even change this. I regret the time where drawers could be moved from one side to another. My point is: why on the right on QuickLook and on the left on Preview??? NOT CONSISTENT.
2. You can still remove items from the dock dragging the item out, why not anymore on the sidebar? It doesn't make sense knowing that in both cases, you don't delete files/folders/app. It's just removing an alias, if you do it accidentaly, you can drag the item back.

Missing options for the new functionnalities:

• You can't disable versions, neither generally nor case by case. I have files I update daily (such as a numbers file where every day I put one line), and I don't need to keep a track of that. If I want to go back to day-1, it can just delete the line, actually...
• You can delete one version at a time, but you cannot delete all versions at once (not efficient at all)
• You can't disable the "reopen windows when loggin back in" option. I'm sorry, but in 99% of the time when I restart my computer it's because I want a fresh start!
• You need a third-party plugin to remove duplicates or unused apps on the launchpad, and you don't really have an easy way to reorganize your apps and folders (it's even easier on iTunes to reorganize apps on your iPhone/iPad)
• You need a third-party app to disable "restore state" on apps. I'm sorry, but when I quit Safari, or Pages, I certainly don't want to reopen the same content when I launch it back. Sorry Apple, but I don't have only ONE document and only ONE website and I certainly DON'T do every single day the same thing.

I won't say "don't upgrade to Lion", because I like it, I enjoy it most of the time, but I'd say "Apple, fix bugs, improve it, add options, don't take users for sheep..."

Well put, sir.

It does appear that the Lion versus Snow Leopard debate is rapidly becoming as big and as controversial as the Windows versus Mac debate has. Unwittingly, Apple has caused a lot of dissatisfaction as well as division amongst previously loyal punters. I have installed Lion onto an external hard disk so that I can run it, play with it, and test it out without it ruining my life as it has to so many. I have always been a very early adopter and fan of all things Apple. But this time, unusually, I am left cold and frustrated with Lion and have absolutely no motivation to make the change globally with all my kit. Mainly because there are no tangible benfits with Lion, and several obvious, in-your-face disadvantages to it. The one that gets to me most is the ridiculous abandonment of Save As. That on its own is a show stopper. Not because it can't be worked around, but because it is the single most crystal clear indication that Apple have moved from being a firm that cared what customers thought about their OS, to one that does not. Otherwise we would have an option, a switch, that would allow us to use or not use things that are contra to our satisfaction. But they have not, and will not do that.

Microsoft have learnt a painful lesson from their similar behaviour, we have to go through the pain while Apple learns theirs - oh, and they will.

I've never noticed the Finder issue, but can repeat it. I don't see the problem with iCal, AB, and Mail. I use same setup and don't see a problem.

Option to have small icons in the finder toolbar. WHY?

Seems pretty small already, but nobody here will know why.

2. Remove items from the sidebar just by dragging the item (since Snow Leopard 10.6.8, ok, but WHY?)

Just hold down the command key while you drag. People were accidentally dragging things off based on comments here on SL.

When you use Quick Look on a PDF file, thumbnails are still on the right side (yeah!)

Never noticed, or cared, but I see the point about consistency.

Point 2 (second set) already covered above. I guess not that many people were accidentally deleting things from the Dock. But I'd aggree with locking down the Dock the same as the Sidebar and Toolbar.

You can delete one version at a time, but you cannot delete all versions at once (not efficient at all)

Duplicate, Save, Delete the original.

You can't disable the "reopen windows when loggin back in" option. I'm sorry, but in 99% of the time when I restart my computer it's because I want a fresh start!

The 99% of the time my computer restarts, I didn't want it to. I never shut down. I only ever need to restart if the power fails or an update forces it. I want it all to come back as I was using it.

You need a third-party plugin to remove duplicates or unused apps on the launchpad, and you don't really have an easy way to reorganize your apps and folders (it's even easier on iTunes to reorganize apps on your iPhone/iPad)

It's about version 0.3 on Lauchpad. It seemed to be rushed out for Lion and very rudimentary. Basic functionality is all it has. I haven't got a use for it. Try Quicksilver. Much better launcher.

You need a third-party app to disable "restore state" on apps. I'm sorry, but when I quit Safari, or Pages, I certainly don't want to reopen the same content when I launch it back.

Once again. I like that feature. Just learn to Cmd-Opt-Quit instead of plain cmd-quit. Or, turn it of in the General System Preferences.

Barney, these are useful tips (and I have one more about removing all versions, see below), but I think the point is that we're being made to jump through usability hoops for things that Leopard and Snow Leopard gained a reptuation for making easy.

I wouldn't mind if it were for some pay-off, but what is the pay-off with Lion? What is the advantage gained by upgrading, and what is the advantage gained to the user - in particular - about making fairly basic tasks like 'Save as' more difficult than they are on any other computer since...ooooh, 1984 or so I guess.

I'm not averse to change. I'm not averse to having things being less simple than they were before IF that change confers some greater benefit. Sorry, but I fail to see what the benefit of Lion is over Snow Leopard.

I know we will have our regular (yawn...) bunch wading back in with - "this is the way Apple is going; you're a dinosaur", but frankly, that shrill charge will not translate into sales. At least no more from me until, as ChrisRR poignantly notes, Apple learn to respect what their customers want rather than dictating what is convenient, profitable, or advantageous to their own long-term strategy.

I don't want to give up using Mac not least because there's nothing quite like it, and also because I've invested so much time, money and energy into learning the system. That said, more importantly is the fact that I do NOT want to stick with a system that frustrates me and doesn't meet my needs.

Someone's got to give — Apple or its customers — but it won't be me; I'm paying Apple to give me what I want, not the other way around...

__________________

TIP: you can delete all versions at once by killing the documentrevisions folder: http://applehelpwriter.com/2011/09/16/taming-versions-sort-of/

Mulligans is a troll, in case you hadn't figured it out yet.

Ignore and carry on regardless. 🙂

softwater wrote:

Barney, these are useful tips (and I have one more about removing all versions, see below), but I think the point is that we're being made to jump through usability hoops for things that Leopard and Snow Leopard gained a reptuation for making easy.

I wouldn't mind if it were for some pay-off, but what is the pay-off with Lion? What is the advantage gained by upgrading, and what is the advantage gained to the user - in particular - about making fairly basic tasks like 'Save as' more difficult than they are on any other computer since...ooooh, 1984 or so I guess.

As I've stated before, Lion's features are what I've always wanted. What you call jumping through hoops I call great advancements. I like Versions and the Duplicate paradigm. I like Resume. All of it works the way I think.

I almost never used 'Save as.' I didn't want it to close what I was working on, just freeze a version in time. I would actually save, go into the Finder, copy the document with a new name, then continue working on the original. With Versions and Duplicate, I don't have to jump through hoops. You may think I was crazy to do all of that. For me, you wanting Save As… is just as crazy. It is a giant paradigm shift. Just realize that there are people out there that the new paradigm makes way more sense than the old.

If I wanted to work like you do, I suppose I'd be upset, also. But, based on the high sales volume and relatively small number of complaints seen here (yes, it is small), I don't think the new paradigm bothers a whole lot of people--and that miniscule lack of sales isn't going to bother Apple, either.

I realize that a lot of people don't work that way. I also understand the difficulties of running two code bases, so I don't anticipate Apple ever providing the option to "go back" unless they just dump the whole lot. Also, for developer's to start supporting Versions, Duplicate and the like, they would also have to run two code bases.

Barney-15E wrote:

I've never noticed the Finder issue, but can repeat it. I don't see the problem with iCal, AB, and Mail. I use same setup and don't see a problem.

Just try it. Assign apps to different desktops, open them, and swith using alt+tab. You'll see that using alt+tab selects the app (menu bar confirms it), switches to the right desktop, but another window (not focused) is on the foreground. Using the dock to switch app works fine, though. It was working fine under SL, but not since "mission control".

Also try to assign the finder on one desktop, open a folder where you have crap to delete, switch to another app on another desktop, switch back to the finder using alt+tab and do a little cmd+A then a cmd+delete, just for fun. You have deleted files from the desktop, because the opend window is not focused! How funny. Was also working perfectly fine under SL.

2. Remove items from the sidebar just by dragging the item (since Snow Leopard 10.6.8, ok, but WHY?)

Just hold down the command key while you drag. People were accidentally dragging things off based on comments here on SL.

I know the trick. But It's just stupid. Dragging thinks accidentally? Wow, big deal. Nothing is deleted. Just removed. Is it really hard to put it back? An option in System Preferences should be better (I know how to use my mouse and don't drag things accidentally).

You can delete one version at a time, but you cannot delete all versions at once (not efficient at all)

Duplicate, Save, Delete the original.

That simple? How have I missed it?! 3 actions... But you also forgot "rename the copy after deleting the original". 4 actions. Pretty inefficient, indeed.

The 99% of the time my computer restarts, I didn't want it to. I never shut down. I only ever need to restart if the power fails or an update forces it. I want it all to come back as I was using it.

Once again. I like that feature. Just learn to Cmd-Opt-Quit instead of plain cmd-quit. Or, turn it of in the General System Preferences.

Yeah, I forgot this option. But I'm still waiting for the "I don't want the checkbox 'reopens windows when I'm loggin back in' to be checked by default".

Apple used to create computers, OS, and apps both for customers and developpers, and it was great. Desktop users needing only Internet and office apps and developpers using big apps (using a big amount of RAM) were both working fine on a well-balanced OS that was abble to manage simple tasks as big tasks.

Now, they care only about desktop users. And you seem to be one (I'm not saying it's good or bad, don't get me wrong). You never had to restart your computer to clean your memory and have a fresh start. That's probably why you love the fact that when you are forced by the system to restart, windows and apps are restored just as they were. And maybe you even think that for years you were waiting for such a feature because it was a hassle to restart your computer and have to launch again your apps. Fair enough.

This could mean than for decades only developpers didn't care about not having such a feature, and now it's time for a revenge and developpers have to suffer from it. Just kidding.

For sure, just a checkbox in the System Preferences would be nice!

Barney-15E wrote:

But, based on the high sales volume and relatively small number of complaints seen here (yes, it is small), I don't think the new paradigm bothers a whole lot of people--and that miniscule lack of sales isn't going to bother Apple, either.

You may be right and you may be wrong, but as I've pointed out before, its a fallacy to argue that the number of complaints on here is not indicative of a wider discontent.

Also, there's a lot of people repeating without evidence (as far as I can see) that sales of Lion are fantastic and complaints minimal. I've see no comparison of sales like-for-like of Lion versus Snow Leopard after six months, nor have I seen evidence that sales of Lion are matching Apple's predictions.

Still, I would expect sales of a new OS to be strong in the first 6 months — its new, its heavily promoted, and its easier than ever to to install. Initial sales, however, do not necessarily translate into customer satisfaction. A lot of people bought Vista only to regret it later.

The acid test is how sales fare of Apple computers (not the OS) over the next 12 to 18 months, how much user dissatisfaction increases, how much bad-word-of-mouth spreads to affect those sales (old adage: for every disgruntled user, you can count on 10 bad reports from each of them within their network; add on to that for every disgruntled old Mac OS X user, Apple is not only getting bad reports, but is losing all those recommendations we used to give. I've lost count of how many people on here in the last 6 months have said "I used to recommend Mac, but now I don't").

It's easy for satisfied users like yourself to be complacent about the complaints. Apple, however, would be foolish to follow you in that complacency.

ChrisRR wrote:

The one that gets to me most is the ridiculous abandonment of Save As.

Me too. Here's one reason why:

I regularly work for the same clients so in Snow Leopard, from month to month when I bill them, I open the previous month's invoice, save it as (new name) to the folder where I want it to go. It immediately appears on my screen, where I simply change the date, invoice number, and amount. It's already in the folder where I wanted it to be so I don't need to move it.

None of that is possible in Lion, so easily, so transparently, so quickly.

But my question to you Chris is: does Windows have a "save as" function (or its equivalent)?

(Ignore any trolls who will step in here and say I'm a lion-hater, dumb, etc. What they say is not relevant).

I've never heard that much people talking about downgrade before Lion, and I've never ever heard about downgrade for people buying new macs.

For me, downgrading was for windows users only.

Downgrading was only when Microsoft did invent a crappy system and didn't care about users.

Downgrading was a bad word I would never use.

Things have changed.

I've lost count of how many people on here in the last 6 months have said "I used to recommend Mac, but now I don't").

It's easy for satisfied users like yourself to be complacent about the complaints. Apple, however, would be foolish to follow you in that complacency.

I can't agree more, and I'm very sad. For over a decade now, I was telling to every one that OS X was outstanding, a decade in advance on Windows, how amazing working on a mac is... Many friends and family members switched to Mac because I convinced them and all of them, no exception, loved the change.

Since Lion, I've heard many people who are either affraid of upgrading to Lion or people complaining or people disliking Lion.

In my tiny address book I have about 15 people who complain/dislike/refuse the upgrade. And about 70 people using a mac. You got it? 20% of my network using a mac are not satisfied. I don't believe I'm an exception.

You have to remember something. Most of users of anything (from car to insurance to toasters to computers) don't complain directly to the manufacturer.

And not all Apple users know about this forum and won't say "I dislike" online.

mulligans missus wrote:

Then surely you should know how to install a new OS cleanly. If you are full of junky hidden files then you probarbly haven't cleaned your computer up since OS 6. If you want to go back to SL then do it. No one cares. Millions are using Lion trouble free.

The last sentence is the bit that's wildly inaccurate. According to the latest survey: "86% of purchasers of Apple's new operating system, designated "Lion 10.7", report that they regret making the move from their previous OS. The main causes of dissatisfaction have been UI (User Interface) regressions, problems and loss of functionality, a lack of customization options, frequent installation and upgrade failures, and an overwhelming sense that it's not an Apple Mac OS when compared with Snow Leopard. Many have reported that they believe Lion is "Apple's Visa it is so poor".

So, yeah, seems to be hitting all the right spots...

Tom, you've nailed precisely the same reason why I dislike Versions. I do the same thing with documents I've saved before, open them up, do a Save As, make amendments to the invoice or report, click Save. Piece of pi55. That's why it is so ridiculously unworkable now.

To answer your question, yes, Microsoft Word 2011 retains the Save As function. As I said in my rant, MS are ahead of the game now because they made their mistakes, learnt from it, moved onwards. Apple still has all that cr4p to go through, dragging us with it.

....According to the latest survey: "86% of purchasers of Apple's new operating system, designated "Lion 10.7", report that they regret making the move from their previous OS.........

Please support with a link to the survey....... There is a discconect between purchasers of the OS and New Mac Systems. I suppose most of the complaints are discontinued support for old hardware and software. I'm extremely happy with my new iMac and have had no issues with the conversion. I also have a late 2007 MacBook Pro which is a daily workhorse with again, no issues.

Tom Dignam wrote:

....According to the latest survey: "86% of purchasers of Apple's new operating system, designated "Lion 10.7", report that they regret making the move from their previous OS.........

Please support with a link to the survey....... There is a discconect between purchasers of the OS and New Mac Systems. I suppose most of the complaints are discontinued support for old hardware and software. I'm extremely happy with my new iMac and have had no issues with the conversion. I also have a late 2007 MacBook Pro which is a daily workhorse with again, no issues.

I will, when Milligan's Wife supports his "Millions" with a link... and you support yours with one, of course. Saying there are millions of happy customers is generally just claptrap meted out by vaccuous marketing and sales brochures. Unless those statements can be backed up with hard evidence, they have absolutely no value to anyone other than the opinion-holder. They also only serve to inflame.

I never claimed millions of happy users, You have mistaken me for someone else. Citing surveys without attribution is just wrong. I'm not saying what you say is not true, but jeez man, provide a link or it's just BS.