What happened to Save As?

DChord568 wrote:

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

You are free to write what you want.

Great! Thank you for acknowledging that your previous post, in which you laboriously quoted from Apple's licensing, has no application to this discussion. It seems you were in error.

I'm free to write what I want which is mainly that ranting here against features, which are perfectly matchings the license which you accepted, you are wasting your time which seems so precious.

Since you didn't seem to mind wasting your time as you did with your earlier post, it seems incongruous for you to speak of me wasting mine.

(1) It seems that you didn't understood what I wrote.

The rule is not defined by you but by Apple and is :

8. disclaimer of warranties.

a. You expressly acknowledge and agree that use of the Apple software and services is at your sole risk and that the entire risk as to satisfactory quality, performance, accuracy and effort is with you.

… Apple software and services are provided “as is”, with all faults and without warranty of any kind , … of satisfactory quality, of fitness for a particular purpose, of accuracy, of quiet enjoyment, ….Apple does not warrant against interference with your enjoyment …, that the functions contained in the Apple software or services will meet your requirements,…, or that defects in the Apple software or services will be corrected.

It clearly mean that Apple reserve its rights to don't take care of what you are free to write.

(2) It seems that you forget that as I am retired, my time cost nothing, so I'm free to use it the way I want. Given the fact that you rant against the time which you are supposed to loose thanks to the new workflow, I guess that from your point of view, your time has a cost.

So, when I write here I waste nothing but you waste what seems important for you : cash.

(3) You wrote : Apple allows users to create their own KeyBoard Shortcuts. Alas for you, this apply only to existing menu items and as far as I know, Save As… is no longer existing in recent Apple's apps. In an other thread, someone already wrote that in 10.8, ⌘⇧S is the shortcut for Duplicate which is a meaningful information about your chances to get Save As… back.

Adobe CS and FileMaker allow users to customize menus for years but in the same time, Apple products have non customizable ones. I really doubt that something change in this area.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Isn't this interesting?

I went to the Keyboard Shortcuts in my System Preferences to see if I could add Save As --- you can try this for yourself.

Choose Application Shortcuts on the left side of the panel. Then, when you click the plus button to add your application to the right side of the panel, you get a list of all your Applications -- except (drum roll here ....) Pages, Numbers and Keynote are not even in the list! Text Edit is in the list, however, and so are other Apple programs like Address Book and Preview. Address Book doesn't use Save As, I think, but Preview does.

Anyway, I was able to manually add Pages by choosing Other ..... and now Pages is another of my applications that is equipped with a custom-made keyboard shortcut, but alas, it doesn't work because the menu item doesn't exist in the Pages application.

But it also brings up another issue, only relevant to this thread because of the "theory" espoused by Apple's defenders about how the new Lion enhancements are intended to improve our workflow. Every time I open a Pages document I get the same nonsensical warning message about fonts not present that need to be reviewed or not reviewed. I would like to suppress these dialog boxes, but I can't. AppleCare cannot explain why even though my system is equipped with all the fonts that are installed with iWork, I still continue to get these crazy warnings that are false alarms. I tolerate it and dismiss it and move on. But I don't do it with any sense of satisfaction that the program author-engineers are looking out for my best interest.

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

DChord568 wrote:

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

You are free to write what you want.

Great! Thank you for acknowledging that your previous post, in which you laboriously quoted from Apple's licensing, has no application to this discussion. It seems you were in error.

I'm free to write what I want which is mainly that ranting here against features, which are perfectly matchings the license which you accepted, you are wasting your time which seems so precious.

Since you didn't seem to mind wasting your time as you did with your earlier post, it seems incongruous for you to speak of me wasting mine.

(1) It seems that you didn't understood what I wrote.

The rule is not defined by you but by Apple and is :

8. disclaimer of warranties.

a. You expressly acknowledge and agree that use of the Apple software and services is at your sole risk and that the entire risk as to satisfactory quality, performance, accuracy and effort is with you.

… Apple software and services are provided “as is”, with all faults and without warranty of any kind , … of satisfactory quality, of fitness for a particular purpose, of accuracy, of quiet enjoyment, ….Apple does not warrant against interference with your enjoyment …, that the functions contained in the Apple software or services will meet your requirements,…, or that defects in the Apple software or services will be corrected.

It clearly mean that Apple reserve its rights to don't take care of what you are free to write.

When have I or anyone else claimed something that is in conflict with this last statement? Please quote the passage in which we have done so.

Of course we can't FORCE Apple to do what we want. A four-year-old child would understand this. But that doesn't mean we can't advocate for changes we would like to see. That's all anyone is doing here.

I will repeat...your laborious quoting from Apple's Licensing Agreement has absolutely no application to what is happening in this thread. Ergo, you have wasted your time in doing so.

(2) It seems that you forget that as I am retired, my time cost nothing, so I'm free to use it the way I want. Given the fact that you rant against the time which you are supposed to loose thanks to the new workflow, I guess that from your point of view, your time has a cost.

So, when I write here I waste nothing but you waste what seems important for you : cash.

Simply because you have more time to waste doesn't mean that you're not wasting it.

As for me...we all need entertainment in our lives. Watching you repeatedly make a fool of yourself and being hoisted by your own petard is part of my entertainment.

(3) You wrote : Apple allows users to create their own KeyBoard Shortcuts.

Actually, I didn't write this. It seems you've made another error.

elol wrote:

This is what I am looking for in a software package. If they can do it why not apple or anyone else for that matter

They do not sell on the appstore.

cheers elo

Your screenshot is really interesting 😁

There are thousands of features available elsewhere which will never delivered by Apple and you will not be surprized to read that I am glad of that. I hate what we call in French « usines à gaz ».

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

DChord568 wrote:

(3) You wrote : Apple allows users to create their own KeyBoard Shortcuts.

Actually, I didn't write this. It seems you've made another error.

On this point you are right.

The quoted sentence was written by :Dennis Burnham

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

This is what I would like to see in most software products. However this software does not sell on the AppStore.. Obviously you can also enable the features.

they features only get disabled for this application. cheers elo

elol wrote:

This is what I would like to see in most software products. However this software does not sell on the AppStore.. Obviously you can also enable the features.

they features only get disabled for this application. cheers elo

Happily, such an application would be rejected from the MAS.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

One more time you read wrongly.

I wrote that there is no link between Save a Version and templates which is perfectly true.

This statement is of no consequence to me, as it involves a topic on which I have made no statement of my own. You brought this up in response to which statement of mine? I have not referenced the term Save a Version in any of my posts.

I wrote that one way to replace Save As… is the use ot templates.

WRONG. When I and others brought up the deleterious changes the absence of Save As has wrought on our workflows, you specifically responded to this with a suggestion to use templates.

Shall I quote the instances in which you did this? Or would you rather I save you the embarrassment? As well as the further embarrassment of demonstrating that when your error was pointed out, you suddenly fell silent rather than acknowledging it?

May you, at last, understand that Save a Version is a menu item which is not dedicated to saving a new version of an existing document ?

The defunct Save As… was dedicated to save a file in the folder displayed on the left.

Save a Version store pieces of documents in the folder .DocumentRevisions-V100 displayed on the right (it's normally hidden).

The day you will understand that, you will be able to understand the new workflow.

I understand the "new workflow" perfectly well, thank you. So you've once again wasted your time with all of your screenshots and irrelevant indications of what is saved where.

I understand the "new workflow"...and I don't like it. It does not meet my needs. Save As, which I've happily used since my first Mac in 1988, DOES meet my needs in a superior fashion.

The day you will understand that, you will stop wasting your time with your irrelevant posts.

Not all change is easy, but the "save as" item in the file menu has only been replaced by the "duplicate" menu item, and you don't neccesarily have to save the duplicate as it auto-saves for you, easy right?

I don't think the educational industry will make the huge mistake of turning to the dark side just because there is something they can not adopt to. I thought education is all about adopting?

Post your grievances to apple.com/feedback as Apple will not look here...

Not exactly, Mark.

You can use the new Duplicate menu item, but here is what happens. The original item remains open and you now have 2 windows open.

If you want only to work on the new one without the other one being in your way, you have to return to it to click to close it.

That may seem like a trivial matter, but it also comes with a warning. Unless the original document that you duplicated is old enough to be LOCKED from auto-save, then the mere fact that it is open will result in new auto-saved "versions" of that document too. So if you were thinking about your original as something that was named and dated and does not need to be altered, you could be in for a surprise when you go looking for it by date.

Mark23 wrote:

Not all change is easy, but the "save as" item in the file menu has only been replaced by the "duplicate" menu item, and you don't neccesarily have to save the duplicate as it auto-saves for you, easy right?

No, not easy. More complex, involving several additional and annoying steps. (And of course, you have to eventually Save the duplicate at least once if you want to give it a unique name. You're not going to leave it hanging around indefinitely without identifying it in some way.)

In addition, Save As, when invoked in Snow Leopard, always opens up a dialog box with the same location as the original file (which is where you want to save your new document in most cases).

But when you first save a Duplicated document in Lion, the dialog box opens in a totally unrelated location that has nothing to do with the work you're now doing. You must then manually navigate to where you want to save your Duplicated file.

I understand the advantages of Auto Save and Versioning in some instances. But under other circumstances, it makes things worse instead of better. In those circumstances, the user should be able to disable this new paradigm and go back to the way that worked just fine on the Mac for 37 years.

Post your grievances to apple.com/feedback as Apple will not look here...

And you know this...how? Do you seriously believe that Apple would create a forum such as this, and yet not a single Apple employee would ever have the curiosity to see what's going on in it?

And by the way, we all posted to Apple's feedback channel long, long ago about this.

I'm starting to understand why it is not logical 🙂

Earlier on the day, it's almost midnight on this side of the globe, I was indeed somewhat irritated about this particular feature of Lion.

I think Apple made some good changed and some bad ones as well in Lion, although the client version of Lion is not merely as bad as the server version of Lion, with the new administration tools not quite passing along the correct information to the administrator computer and therefor making administration somewhat of a pain as well as services refusing to work at least in my environment.

Where there is work in progress errors are made more often than when a company would be at a complete stop.

I will file a feature request at apple.com/feedback as well, so when complaints do pile up, they'll change it back or refine it so that all complaints are addressed.

So if you were thinking about your original as something that was named and dated and does not need to be altered, you could be in for a surprise when you go looking for it by date.

Hi,

But wait Dennis, just for clarity:

If I leave the original doc open as is, it won't change by itself,

while i continue editing the duplicate doc, won't it?

Omar KN

Hi:

apple.com/feedback

I have sent feature change requests to apple too.

just remember to send one for each and every application in question pages, numbers, and preview.

for the record.. more research did a trial version tonight....

PIXELMATOR they have incorperated all the features of Version and removed SAVE AS

waiting to see ADOBE PSE....????

cheers..

Flood them on the feedback page 'apple.com/feedback' with the same effort that everyone is putting into these forums and we will get a result.

If you can put 10 posts on a forum - do the same on the feedback pages and we should FLOOD them with our complaints.

Bring back 'Save As'

Don't listen to any more arguments just act!