What happened to Save As?

I repeat that what you write doesn't match the terms of the License which you accepted when you installed the applications.

Okay, let's put an end to this nonsense you also repeat ad nauseam. Yes, the license for all software is that you are using it on a lease, not as an owner. You've repeatedly used this stance as "proof" that Apple can do whatever they want with the software and you are less than mud to them.

Maybe you should learn something about what you're using for an argument before doing so. All software is leased so you cannot own it. If you were to actually own software you purchase, you could make a very good case in court that you should also then have access to the source code. After all, you own it.

The lease has nothing to do with a customer's right to ask for, or demand changes to a product they purchased based on their needs.

Yvan, maybe you are pig headed, but I am not a Lemming!

Just because I agreed to the license, doesn't mean I can't choose to let Apple know that I don't care for something. I understand that I can't make them change a thing, but I can only hope they will listen.

It appears that you were unable to read what I highlighted.

So I make a new attempt. I hope that this time you will be able to read and understand.

8. disclaimer of warranties.

a. You expressly acknowledge and agree that use of the Apple software and services is at your sole risk and that the entire risk as to satisfactory quality, performance, accuracy and effort is with you.

Except for the limited warranty on media set forth above and to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, the Apple software and services are provided “as is”, with all faults and without warranty of any kind , and Apple and Apple's licensors (collectively referred to as “Apple” for the purposes of sections 8 and 9) hereby disclaim all warranties and conditions with respect to the Apple software and services, either express, implied or statutory, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties and/or conditions of merchantability, of satisfactory quality, of fitness for a particular purpose, of accuracy, of quiet enjoyment, and non-infringement of third party rights. Apple does not warrant against interference with your enjoyment of the Apple software or services, that the functions contained in the Apple software or services will meet your requirements, that the operation of the Apple software or services will be uninterrupted or error-free, or that defects in the Apple software or services will be corrected.

Given that, I really can't understand what you are hoping.

What you are ranting against is clearly excluded of the warranty.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 28 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

So what? What don't you understand about the concept of customer feedback?

Accepting software "the way it is" doesn't mean you have no say in it's development or the ability to suggest changes. Are you really so dense when it comes such to common business practices?

You are free to hope but you are doing that since August 2011.

There was no change brought since this date and given what is written here and there there is no change about that in 10.8 ( just the fact that Scripts Editor is now embedding the new scheme).

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 28 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

So I take a little vacation from these forums from time to time, and then I check back in, with the faint hope that a cure for idiocy might have been developed in the interim.

Sadly, I am disappointed again.

Yvan, how exactly do you make the leap from the highlighted passages you took so much time to quote and the notion that Apple customers are somehow not permitted to express their frustration with Apple products?

Really...please share your logical thought process that led you to this conclusion. I'm due for a good laugh, and you've always come through for me.

You are free to write what you want.

I'm free to write what I want which is mainly that ranting here against features, which are perfectly matchings the license which you accepted, you are wasting your time which seems so precious.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Yvan, I fully appreciate your focus on the license - that it is what it is. My position is to get to what the customer WANTS, not what the license says. The license can easilly be changed if Apple wants it to, if it wants to fully serve its customers.

So, again, the customer wants a simple "Save As" feature incorporated into the system. Bring on the new features - fine - but give me a chance to learn these new features before you take away the tried and true.

It seems that you don't understand.

You are perfectly free to want this or that but it's not you which decide.

Apple if free to do what it want.

I already posted the late Guidelines which clearly don't match your wishes.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Hi:

Yvan .. You are now starting to get rude and inconsiderate to other individuals posting on this discussion. Dyan, Dchord have every right to list their view without your preaching and repetitive comments.

I for one would appreciate it if you would no longer make any more entries or comments unless you have something new and positive to bring to the table.

By positive I mean comments to help us move to discuss how to we can persuade Apple to change the path they are taking.

I do not want to hear any more of the preaching. We have all heard it enough times.

We all know what apple have done, what they have documented.

Lets get on with a positive and progressive discussion.

Yvan: I can see from the level and points you have achieved that you have provided many individuals with good positive help and information. Do not ruin your good reputation. Sometimes one must back off on an issue and see what develops even if we do not agree.

Please let others do the talking for a while.

cheers elo

Elo here... more research

Pixelmator have implemented Versions and while there are those who like it there are also many who do not. There are long discussion on their support site concerning the many problems developers are having with their day to day workflow. There are also some positive comments but they seem to be from more casual users. I will follow up on their site.

I suggest that if any of you use other products see what the discussion boards say and ask the company what their intent is. Then let them know your opininon. This is the only way to force a change in plans/or implement an optional out of the feature.

That is what I would like to see. A menu command or preference pane feature giving the CUSTOMER the option to opt out.

One pixelmator user said that if you want to sell on the MAC APPstore your will be required to change to Versions(at this point in time). He also said buy Gimp.(not an easy product to use) I wait anxiously to see what Adobe will do with PSElements.

Cheers elo

cheers elo

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

You are free to write what you want.

Great! Thank you for acknowledging that your previous post, in which you laboriously quoted from Apple's licensing, has no application to this discussion. It seems you were in error.

I'm free to write what I want which is mainly that ranting here against features, which are perfectly matchings the license which you accepted, you are wasting your time which seems so precious.

Since you didn't seem to mind wasting your time as you did with your earlier post, it seems incongruous for you to speak of me wasting mine.

I took a brief vacation from this thread for a few days and returned today to find a new chorus of people wasting more time arguing with Yvan and his admittedly pig-headed insistence on proving the rest of us are wrong because we don't want to drink the Kool-Aid that he finds so appetizing.

Let's keep our focus on the important issue. Mountain Lion is coming. It's not here yet. Inserting Save As into the File Menu could not be a huge technological obstacle. The code has existed for 20+ years. Apple could, if they come to their senses, bow to customer demand while at the same time gradually migrating people to see the benefits of their new auto-save features. There probably are some, but as others have explained here (the example of sending Excel files to a CPA at tax time) they don't always fit all circumstances.

The article explaining what's coming in Mountain Lion is an indication that Apple DOES occasionally respond to requests from its customers. Being able to modify the name of a file by clicking twice on its name in the GetFile or PutFile dialog boxes is a clear example, and a welcome improvement. I am open minded enough to think that if the several new interface enhancements in Lion with the title bar and new naming opportunities are found to be useful, I might find myself using Save As a lot less in the future than I did in the past. And if that turns out to be the case, it would not break my heart or compromise my workflow to find that my File menu includes an item I don't use as often as I once did. It would be no big deal.

There are lots of other menu commands I seldom if ever use. They don't get in my way at all. Some programs (Adobe CS and FileMaker for example) allow users to customize menus the way they want. Apple allows users to create their own KeyBoard Shortcuts. Hey, wouldn't that be an attractive and creative way to give Save As back to users who want it?

elol wrote:

Yvan: I can see from the level and points you have achieved that you have provided many individuals with good positive help and information. Do not ruin your good reputation. Sometimes one must back off on an issue and see what develops even if we do not agree.

As you can see from his subsequent post, Yvan has no concern about his "reputation" (and I can tell you from experience in multiple threads that it is far from a "good" one in the eyes of many).

Indeed, he seems inordinately proud of his obnoxiousness — which offers an interesting insight into his character.

In the end, we have to be grateful that we only have to be exposed to that character in writing. Imagine those who must actually confront him in-person day in and day out.

elol wrote:

That is what I would like to see. A menu command or preference pane feature giving the CUSTOMER the option to opt out.

Exactly what I and many other users have been advocating for months.

Leave Auto Save and Versioning as the default in Lion/Mountain Lion...but give experienced users the ability to disable it in Preferences.

Those few people who haven't ignored this suggestion entirely when it's brought up have utterly failed in their efforts to explain why it's a bad idea. Every false objection they have raised has been met.

But instead of admitting that they haven't a leg to stand on, they just melt back into the woodwork and keep singing from the "Apple can do no wrong" hymnal.

Watch as this same scenario unfolds here.