What happened to Save As?

It's so clear that there is no need to add a comment.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 28 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

For years, when Keynote, Numbers &é Pages are components of the iWork package , then don't appear directly in the list of apps to which we may add a shortcut.

The huge difference here is that I know the use of the tool while you are ignoring it.

Not only It appears that you ignore the behavior of the define a shortcut tool but it appears that I am using custom shortcuts in Numbers.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

One more time you read wrongly.

I wrote that there is no link between Save a Version and templates which is perfectly true.

I wrote that one way to replace Save As… is the use ot templates.

The way defined by Apple is Duplicate + Save….

As I made no error, I can't recognize one.

May you, at last, understand that Save a Version is a menu item which is not dedicated to saving a new version of an existing document ?

The defunct Save As… was dedicated to save a file in the folder displayed on the left.

Save a Version store pieces of documents in the folder .DocumentRevisions-V100 displayed on the right (it's normally hidden).

The day you will understand that, you will be able to understand the new workflow.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Here's the only reason why Apple made a "Save As…" command in classic Mac OS in the first place:

How this got carried over to Mac OS X is staggering, considering that the first machines that Mac OS X 10.0 ran on didn't even include a floppy drive!

After you get over the realisation that this is an outdated and often heavily abused command for aiding in the manual saving of document data to removable floppy disks, you'll see why it was not suitable for the implementation of the Auto-Save and Resume features of OS X Lion.

What I have been saying all along in this discussion is that what you're dealing with here is a mindset, and not a technical issue; Apple has already dealt with the latter.

Free your mind!

—tonza

Looks like you are correct, raftr. It appears Adobe ignored Lion's Autosave/Versions function entirely. Here's the preference panel for CS 6:

I had a 70 MB file open for about 20 minutes and just kept randomly making changes to it, using the above settings. I expected at some point for the file's desktop icon to change every 5 minutes to reflect what I had on screen. It didn't. No matter how long I worked on the image, or what I did to it, your file is not directly saved until you choose to. Closing the unsaved work results in the standard message you expect, Don't Save, Cancel, Save.

So what it looks like what Adobe did was implement its own way to restore a saved state it manages if the app crashes.

I described quite ten times the different features with screenshots.

AutoSave save the document on itself.

Open azerty.pages

change one character.

AutoSave will apply and save the modified document in the file azerty.pages.

Versions apply in two cases :

(1) when you trigger the menu item « Save a Version »

(2) every hours if you don't trigger it thru the menu item AND if something was changed since the late version recording.

(3) when we close a modified document (I write this one from memory and this old one may fail 😟).

The datas stored by Save a Version are not stored in the file itself.

When you trigger the local menu in the document's title bar, you ask the app to reconstruct the different versions of the document starting from the datas stored in the dedicated .DocumentRevisions-V100 folder.

Given the code of iWork apps, this mean that the app decipher the different index.xml stored as versions and insert the multimedia objects which may be embedded but which are stored only once in the .DocumentRevisions-V100 folder.

I repeat, no change = no new version created.

CAUTION : when you print a document, the app store datas related to this task in the file so this one is a modified one. I didn't checked that but I assume that it will generate a new version.

I remember a document speaking of the ability to take care of this case and don't store a version for a document whose unique modification was a print task. Alas, I don't remember if it was the description of an existing feature of the description of a wished one. I think that filtering this case would be fine but at this time I don't know what is resally applying. I'm interested by many other things than AutoSave or Versions.

I apologize but if you want more details, look at the thread :

« Versions as a recovery tool »

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3303794

I'm a bit tired to repeat what I described here several times and what was commented here by :

« don't bother us with your description of the features, We know what they are and what they do. »

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 11 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

PS

In the screenshot the folder in deep blue is the document itself (remember that an iWork '09 document is just a packed folder ) and that it's visible.

The other one is in light blue because it's normally an hidden folder.

That covers it pretty well. I saw a couple of things to add after playing with an image in Lion with Preview.

Not sure if it's been there all along (I don't think it was) but after making a change to the image and then selecting Duplicate, it now asks if you want to revert the original before opening the duplicate.

In a sense, giving you a Save As step to put the image back to its original state on the fly. Unfortunately, this is not the default choice, but at least it's there. Couldn't tell you if the rest of Apple's apps also behave this way (Final Cut X Pro, Pages, etc).

Anyway, the point being it affects step six under Duplicate in Lion: a bit. If you chose "Duplicate and Revert", then the steps remain as is. If you chose the default of "Duplicate" and didn't want your original altered, then you have to add a step 7 to revert your original after closing it (or reverting while it's still open).

Either way, I can't see anything that's better about the new method. If this were the only way I could work, it would very much slow down how much work I can get done in a day as I use Save As dozens to hundreds of times a day. All of these extra steps for Duplicate would noticeably add up.

And just to show how half baked this whole system is, Preview wouldn't let me change a document. Now, I realize this is a first iteration under Lion, so there's bound to be some bugs, but I made some changes to an image and tried to close it with the changes. Preview told me I couldn't because the file was locked. I told it to Save Anyway, and then it told me I didn't have permission.

Wrong. I did a Get Info and the file was not locked, and I had full permissions. No matter what I tried to do in Get Info, I could not save the image directly over itself. I had to make a Duplicate and then save that.

Steve Maximus wrote:

Now that is funny, it is YOU he is talking about. You are the Little Snitch App. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. Maybe you should learn a bit more English next time Yvan...

I know only one Little Snitch application (with the uppercase characters).

I choose to ignore the alternate meaning (without the uppercase characters) which would need to be reported.

Before giving lessons of English language, learn to spell correctly reich (no t). 😝

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) samedi 28 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Dennis Burnham wrote:

Regarding templates, DChord, I find it interesting that Save as Template... does not have a keyboard equivalent, which means that if I were to save every document as a template file, I could not conclude my work and arrive at the PutFile dialog box by typing command-W or command-S.

Since the delivery of the very first OS X, we may attach a shortcut to every existing menu item.

In french, « Save As Template… » is spelled « Enregistrer comme modèle… » and I gave it a shortcut.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

"I no longer have access to the pre-Lion edition of iWork to see if command-shift-S or some other keystroke combination invoked Save As, the way it does in most Adobe applications."

Numbers '09 (pre-Lion) file menu:

Shift-command-S for Save as... is pretty common, going back at least to ClarisWorks.

Regards,

Barry

Jezra,

If you do a clean install of Lion on your system, then install iworks, and you never update iWorks you will have it with Save-As and without Versions. This is what I have done. Every time you do a software update you have to do it manually, and deselct the iWorks 09 update. That way it stays in the Snow Leopard version of the software. Below are some screen shots of where you select the details of the update and turn off the iWorks 09 update.

Once you update iWorks you cannot delete it and reinstall it again as the original programs. You have to start the whole process from scratch. There are websites that discuss how to do a clean install of Lion. It invovles making a flash drive bootable with Lion on it, then erasing your hard drive. I did the clean install of Lion to make sure that it worked well, so it did not bother me to do that. This works for Numbers, Pages and Keynote. I hope this helps.

Try this website for the clean install of Lion, this is the one I used:

http://www.macworld.com/article/1161203/should_you_clean_install_lion.html

Steve.

I don't mind Autosave that much now that I have the option to always be asked if I want to keep the changes or "revert" them.

It is technically the old "do you want to save changes" prompt worded differently.

The other thing I like about this is after reassigning the keyboard shortcuts if you go to General (in the System Preferences) and make sure "Ask to keep changes when closing documents" is checked... you get back the standard save dialog box with the "Don't Save" button... rather than "Revert"

For those who have tried the Terminal command, it's is very important that you restart after entering it. The change is not read or acted on by the OS until you restart and it reads the contents of the hidden .GlobalPreferences.plist in your user account. Once you restart, then things change. Here's the difference between Preview and TextEdit with the option on (default) and off.

Preview's menu appears like this by default:

After entering the Terminal command and restarting, it becomes this:

Duplicate disappears from the menu, but so does Save As. So you lose that ability with Preview. You can only Save. If you have the option in the System Preferences on to ask if you want to save changes when closing a document, then default button to cancel is "Revert to Saved". After the command, it becomes the older style "Don't Save". So the main loss with Preview is there is no Save As at all. Not even Duplicate.

TextEdit's menu appears like this by default:

After the Terminal command, it becomes this:

Duplicate goes away and is replace by Save As with the long standard Command+Shift+S keystroke. And it works just as you would expect. You can make all of the modifications you want to a text document and do a Save As. The new document has all of the changes, and the original closes unaltered.

Hi oxcart,

First you need an editor other than TextEdit, since it will not display preference files correctly. I use the free TextWrangler for this kind of thing.

Open com.apple.finder.plist in TextWrangler. Look for any point where you can insert the following:

<key>NSUserKeyEquivalents</key>

<dict>

<key>New Finder Window</key>

<string>@$N</string>

<key>New Folder</key>

<string>@N</string>

</dict>

I can't of course be in the middle of another key, so you need to look for a point where a previous key ends. As an example, I stuck the command just ahead of the Frame Identity Picker.

Save the .plist file. You may need to restart, or log out and log back in.