What happened to Save As?

Omar.KN I found the discussion, now with over 74k views despite being locked in december of last year. I had to search through 5 pages of 30 discussions per page so about 150 unique discussions which had the words "disable autosave" in them to find it. I did that by limiting the search to the author of the article, being "lucafrombrooklyn". That is a lot of people trying to solve this problem and a lot more looking for a solution for it. I am sure if I typed in other searches like "disable versions" I would get a lot of other discussions. All this for something that Apple could just put an ON/OFF button for, like they did for Time Machine.

DChord568 wrote:

There would also be the downside of losing Rosetta. I have a lot of legacy databases in FileMaker Pro 6, and all of these would have to be converted to FileMaker Pro 10 (the latest version I have) before I could use them. This seems to be more trouble than it's worth right now...

Run FileMaker Pro 6 in Snow Leopard installed into Parallels while in Mountain Lion:

[click on image to enlarge]

Full Snow Leopard installation instructions here:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1365439

I mean it is officially called The New iPad, but the new iPhone is the iPhone 5. This image is from the iOS6 Apple website page, at the bottom. What leadership and vision is that? What are they going to call the next iPad? The Really New iPad. And in 5 years time is the current iPad still officially going to be The New iPad? Imagine the marketing meeting for the iPad 5. "But we already have a New iPad." - "Oh $#!? we didn't think about that..."

jgable.

Firstly welcome to the forum. We tend to vent our frustrations here, not just at Save-As but also the whole new way that Apple is treating its operating system and its customers. You are welcome to vent here. There are a lot of good people here who offer great advice on solving real problems, so please ask questions and they will help. Generally I just complain about Apple so I'm not much help myself.

We all feel your pain. A few days ago I wanted to do a simple resize on an image while keeping the original image at its full size. I opened up the image in Lion Preview. I made the changes and went to do a Save-As. Then I realized I can't do that. I had to revert the image, close it, duplicate it on the desktop, open the duplicate, resize it and save it, then go to the desktop, rename it, then move it to the folder where the other image was. I wanted to smash my computer into the wall.

Right now I am in the process of rolling iOS6 back to iOS5. I hope I can do that.

Another example of how Apple tries to control my files and decide what I want and don't want for me. I recently took myself off iCloud. That included the photo sync process. I was always annoyed at iPhoto, especially having to pay for it in Lion because you HAVE to have it to use the iCloud photo backup. This is when it used to be free. I also hated how it made my images an internal thing and I couldn't easily access my images. I decided to get off iPhoto also. I exported my 9,000 images into a folder, then deleted them off iPhoto and iCloud. When I looked at the iPhoto Library it was still 452MB. I had emptied the trash so there should have been no images there. Yet iPhoto was still hanging into some of my images with me asking it to delete them all. I had to rename the folder and start iPhoto to create a new Library which didn't have the old images in it. Talk about a computer having a mind of its own. When "Delete" does not mean delete.

Another classic Apple-controls-my-files situation, I disconnected the iCloud Documents sync when I got off iCloud. That allows Numbers and Pages files to be synced between my devices. It said that I had the option to turn it off, but all the files on my computer that were synced would be deleted. They would remain on the Cloud. In other words the Cloud was the ONLY place I could choose to have those files, not on my computer. I had to go to the cloud, copy the data off those files into email, send the emails to me, then delete the files off the Cloud. The calendar said that it would delete my local calendar if I stopped syncing and just keep it on the cloud. I did a manual backup of my calendar to get around that. At least Address Book let me keep a local copy. Nice. Someone in the Address Book team got that the local device is an OPTION for where to keep files.

Steve

Mark,

Following your lead, I looked deep into my heart and I finally accepted the truth I didn't want to confront. That Yvan Koenig was right. The only way to turn off Versions and revive Save-As on Lion is to stop using Lion. I have gone back to Snow Leopard. I am SO MUCH HAPPIER NOW! Far more than I realized.

There were so many little things in Lion that were annoying me that I had subconsciously forgotten about. Now they are gone, everything just works again, it is fast, logical, sane. No crazy iCloud trying to put everything I do on the cloud without asking me. No iPhotos photostream making double copies of everything I do. No insane mail system with its crazy "see more" button on every reply email, so I can't read what I said without pressing it. No crazy leather and torn pages in the Address Book and iCal. A sane normal intelligent operating system.

The only thing I personally didn't like was that the scrolling was the "normal" way, and I have become used to the "natural" way that the iPad and Lion does it. One little app called Scoll Reverser and that was fixed.

Here are some screen shots, to remind others of what life used to be like, and has become again.

Such a simple solution. Stick to all things Steve-Jobs Apple.

Thanks Yvan.

Steve.

Adobe and several other companies specifically state that the app on the app store and the one purchased from their own site are not the same as they must/may make changes to comply with app store rules.

cheers elo

example.... Elements 10

Long time no comments however all is well with the fight for the return of "SAVE AS" and your continued debate/complaints etc etc..

see the following....

http://macdailynews.com/2012/11/10/os-xi-top-10-most-wanted-features-for-the-nex t-generation-of-apples-os-x/

I do not get the same behaviour, so I just tested.

Opened Numbers and created 'test1' entered 1 thru 6 in B2 to B7, saved as test 1, then entered 7 thru 10 in B8 thru B11, saved as test2.

Result is 2 seperate files, one with 1 to 6 in B2 to B7 and another with 1 thru 10 in B2 thru B11:

Test1 was unaffected by the 'Save As' of Test2

Barry wrote:

Jezra wrote:

"Why has it taken months and months on this forum for the fact that holding down your Option key while clicking the "File" menu option causes "Save As" to appear to emerge???"

This discussion began in 2011, when OS X v10.7 (Lion) was the current version of OS X. That was the version in which Save as... was removed and replaced with Duplicate. In Lion, pressing the option key did not change the Duplicate menu item in the File menu to Save as...

"months and months" later, Apple released a new OS X version, v10.8 (Mountain Lion), in which Save as... was returned to the File menu, but required pressing the option key to reveal and choose. Soon after that (on the day of its release, as I recall), "the fact that holding down your Option key while clicking the "File" menu option causes "Save As" to appear" emerged in this forum. It is difficult for a 'fact' to emerge before it becomes a 'fact.'

Regards,

Barry

One month ago on June 18, in this thread, this appeared.

I saw it, others saw it, you failed to see it.

I apologize for being acerbic or vehement.

Yvan said:

Re: What happened to Save As?

Sep 28, 2011 2:31 PM (in response to Dennis_Burnham)

It's simple,

beta tester tested the operating system and discovered iWork 9.1 when it was delivered to the rest of us

As Apple user since the Apple ][ and shareholder since 1996 ($24 each)

As the guy which built two versions of the French GSOS (it was dropped by Apple France)

As the guy which built the French AppleWorks GS (and Claris allowed me to sell it)

I think that I may give my advice if I want.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 28 septembre 2011 23:28:50

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 4 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.0

My iDisk is : <http://public.me.com/koenigyvan>

Please : Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

I took that to mean you were refering to yourself as a shareholder since 1996, in defence of giving your opinion. Perhaps this is a language miscommunication.

I apologize if I seemed to be talking down to someone who is my senior, I felt as if you were not listening well, but I also feel age is irrelevent to the discussion.

I do not think I know better than than the Apple Team about OS and application design, I do think there are considerations concerning the effect of policy decisions as to the direction of that design (not the same thing), which will bite them in the *** over the long haul, not the current sales year. I think time will tell for sure.

The concept of versions takes a step away from the filesystem and into abstract managed storage. If you have used a Newton OS-based device before, where there is no filesystem, you'll appreciate why "Save As..." makes no sense. iOS uses the same concept to manage documents in an application—you open documents from a list of available ones, and then edit them. No closing (you close a document when you quit the app or open another document), and no saving. They are just there as you last left them.

Versions in OS X Lion takes the concept of a document as an atomic "object" rather than something that is in memory and has an associated "file" on disk. The idea is that Mac applications work more like iOS, and Newton OS before it, and OpenDoc before that, and the Apple Lisa before that, in that documents are objects that you open and edit. No closing, no saving.

But when I say "no saving", I should say that saving is done without your telling so—they are automatic. To allow the system to track the list of automatically saved changes so that you can "undo" or "revert" to previous states, it keeps versions of your documents.

The change in concept means that documents must be named on creation—the system won't let you create an anonymous, memory-only document like you could on the Mac since 1984. You can change the name of the document once you have created it, and the default name could be "untitiled", but the name must exist, and it is the app that has the responsibility of creating the document's name.

It also means that the concept of "saving as a new name" in Lion is fundamentally different. In the early days of computing, documents in memory and documents saved on disk were two different entities, ie., documents on disk were copies of documents in memory at a point in time. There is no one-to-one association between a document in memory and a document on disk.

Documents in Lion and iOS go back to the days of Lisa, OpenDoc and Newton OS and take on the semantic that a document in memory now has an association with a document in storage, where storage can include a disk. This is an important distinction, because it may be that the document in memory and the document in storage is actually one and the same object, particularly where documents exist on computers with flash memory for storage.

In order to make something like a "Save As..." work, you need to make a copy of the document. This is where Lion's "Duplicate" command comes in (you'll see that command in the File menu of Keynote, Numbers and Pages for Lion). To to save a document under a new name, you have to actually duplicate (make a copy of) it first, and give the copy a new name. Duplicating a document makes a copy of the actual object, wherever it may exist (in memory, on disk, in storage... whatever), because that object has an existing association that needs to be replaced with a new one when you make the duplicate, ie., a document and its copy are two separately identifiable atomic objects.

This is distinct to versions of a document, which are actually implemented as different copies of a document in time that appear under the same name, and may also be identified as the one atomic object in storage. This allows Lion to be able to "... share only the most recent copy, not all the hard work it took to get there" when you share a document by copying it over to another Mac or to another user.

So to cut a long story short:

• documents are now atomic objects that carry associations regardless of where they exist on your system: on disk, on the network, in memory or on flash storage,

• to save a document under a new name, you need to make a copy of the document first and then change the new copy's name—this is handled by the "Duplicate" command in the "File" menu of Lion applications.

• versions of a document are not duplicates of it. All versions of a document are essentially the one and the same document, except that they track the changes to the document as they appear in different points in time.

• Lion's document management system is intended to support the concept of auto-saving where a document can be changed both in memory and in storage regardless of where in the system it lives.

As a sidenote:

• the Lisa also did have a "Duplicate..." command in order to save documents as copies under new names <http://toastytech.com/guis/lisaos3desk.gif>. Also note that Lisa doesn't have a "Save" command, but it does have a "Save and Put Away" command, which saves the document away and closes it (saving whilst a document is open is an automatic process).

• the Newton OS requires that users use the routing button (which looks like an envelope) to duplicate documents, whether in an application or on the Newton OS Extras drawer.

• OpenDoc made things more complicated by providing a Save command, since saving was not an automatic process, but it also provided a "Duplicate..." command for creating copies of a document under a new name.

• Keynote, Numbers and Pages in iOS shows you no filesystem, and lists documents that you can open, delete or duplicate (using icons on the top bar). There is no "Save As...".

I hope this makes things clearer as to what is intended as the document model for Lion, and that people can appreciate the reasoning behind the differences.

—tonza

mitchbentley wrote:

"Metaphors aside, one would think just listening instead of defending, would be a helpful skill for developers of any product line. But, hey, if Apple doesn't want to listen, we can't force them."

I doubt there were developers of Lion defending anything in this particular discussion. This is a user-to-user forum, not a developers' forum. Like the rest of the forums on this site, it's focus is intended to be user-to-user assistance on using the product. Apple doesn't actively monitor discussions on the site, although I suspect the hosts have been made aware of this one, and have taken a look or two at it.

If you want to say something to Apple, and actually want Apple to listen, your best route is through a channel that Apple does read/listen to. That would be one of the feedback channels, accessible through the Application menu in pretty much every current Apple Application, or on the web at http://www.apple.com/feedback/

Regards,

Barry

Kurt Lang wrote:

You are absolutely free : use Lion as is or use an other tool.

Well, yes. But how does that help users who have no choice? You purchase a new Mac, you must use Lion. If you then use Pages, Final Cut X Pro, or any other Apple program designed for Lion, where is your choice? Have you not noticed how many users despise the new paradigm and have no option to avoid it?

I'm perfectly aware of that. It's why I wrote : use Lion as is or use an other tool.

I take that back, there are two Apple apps in Lion I use. TextEdit, which you can replace with the Snow Leopard version to get Save As back;

Not sure that you will may do that in next revision.

and Preview, for quick viewing of images. The only real drawback in Lion's version of Preview is that it also utilizes Autosave. Which is incredibly stupid for an app which should only be a viewer, not an editor.

It seems that you never entered the Preview help. For years, Preview is much more than a viewer.

It's the same for Adobe Reader or Skim.

As I wrote several times, if you want to use it as a viewer, define your files as templates. You will be able to wiew them with no problem at all.

Applying a rotation is editing the file. Happily, in this case, Preview doesn't change the datas describing the main contents, it just set a flag according to the applied rotation so there is no loss of info.

If you want to work with Lion, you must learn the way it behave exactly as you must learn the behavior of a new video recorder or the behavior of a new car.

I understand that you may dislike that but the product behave its way and you will not change it.

It's time to understand that the engineers are tossing when they design apps and that Apple engineers, they never explain their choices.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 6 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.2

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Please : Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

For iWork's applications dedicated to iOS, go to :

https://discussions.apple.com/community/app_store/iwork_for_ios

I arrived at it by making it up. My sentence began with the speculative word "if".

Since the very beginning, it's clear that Numbers is designed to behave like a database.

I wropte many times that, from my point of view, it's why we can't sort a single column : it's required to maintain the integrity of rows/records.

I apologize but I don't know any application entitled iWorks.

Some years ago, Apple introduced a package entitled iWork. Maybe it's the one you are writing about.

I already wrote that several times but it seems that you missed that : when we install iWork as a whole or one of its components, we are urged to accept the License/Terms of Use which contain these lines (in uppercase) :

8. Disclaimer of Warranties.

A. YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE APPLE SOFTWARE AND SERVICES IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND THAT THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO SATISFACTORY QUALITY, PERFORMANCE, ACCURACY AND EFFORT IS WITH YOU. EXCEPT FOR THE LIMITED WARRANTY ON MEDIA SET FORTH ABOVE AND TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, THE APPLE SOFTWARE AND SERVICES ARE PROVIDED “AS IS”, WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, AND APPLE AND APPLE'S LICENSORS (COLLECTIVELY REFERRED TO AS “APPLE” FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTIONS 8 and 9) HEREBY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS WITH RESPECT TO THE APPLE SOFTWARE AND SERVICES, EITHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES AND/OR CONDITIONS OF MERCHANTABILITY, OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY, OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OF ACCURACY, OF QUIET ENJOYMENT, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. APPLE DOES NOT WARRANT AGAINST INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE APPLE SOFTWARE OR SERVICES, THAT THE FUNCTIONS CONTAINED IN THE APPLE SOFTWARE OR SERVICES WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, THAT THE OPERATION OF THE APPLE SOFTWARE OR SERVICES WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT DEFECTS IN THE APPLE SOFTWARE OR SERVICES WILL BE CORRECTED. YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE APPLE SOFTWARE AND SERVICES ARE NOT INTENDED OR SUITABLE FOR USE IN SITUATIONS OR ENVIRONMENTS WHERE THE FAILURE OF, OR ERRORS OR INACCURACIES IN THE CONTENT, DATA OR INFORMATION PROVIDED BY, THE APPLE SOFTWARE OR SERVICES COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL, LIFE SUPPORT OR WEAPONS SYSTEMS.NO ORAL OR WRITTEN INFORMATION OR ADVICE GIVEN BY APPLE OR AN APPLE AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE SHALL CREATE A WARRANTY. SHOULD THE APPLE SOFTWARE OR SERVICES PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES OR LIMITATIONS ON APPLICABLE STATUTORY RIGHTS OF A CONSUMER, SO THE ABOVE EXCLUSION AND LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

Of course the License applying to Lion contain the same sentences.

So, it's clear that it's your duty to change your workflow when Apple decide to apply some changes.

I'm an end user like most of those entering this forum. I do my best to help users when they face difficulties.

Since the delivery of Lion, I posted several tools which evolved according to the reactions of some users.

I never wrote (and will never do) a synthetical tutorial. I know that my old scholar English ios too bad for such a task and I'm not here to make the job of professionals.

Here are some references :

(1) Versions as a recovery tool

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3303794

In this one I delivered two scripts allowing users to extract documents from the hidden folder storing datas gathered by the feature entitled "Versions". They already allowed several users to retrieve an usable document when the standard ne proved to be corrupted/unusable.

(2) Save_As#3 :

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3504936?answerId=16810268022#16810268022

It's a script allowing users to work upon a document which was never saved. Triggering it from time to time save a replicate of the work in progress. This time, they keep chronological versions of their work without the annoyements due to the fact that iWork apps are so badly coded that Autosave eat every cycles of a processor core so that they must wait to be able to type something.

(3) I described several times (too often according to some ranters) that the easiest way to work with the apps embedding the new features is to store documents with the status of template/stationary.

This way, when we want to create a new document reusing portions of the existing files, we can't destroy accidentally the original contents.

For some applications we do that thru a simple renaming of the documents.

For other we just need to check a checkbox in the well known documents info window.

On 2011/09/08 I delivered a script entitled set_stationery to achieve the conversion of standard docs into template/stationary ones. It's available in some threads. One of them is :

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3210906?answerId=16118313022#16118313022

I enhanced it on 2012/01/01 and when I will have some free time, I will add the support of documents created with iBooks Author.

If you take time to read the messages posted by : tonza.

This helper is more technology aware than me. He describe very well why Apple intend to achieve with the new features. The ones discussed in this thread as well as the one entitled sandboxing are designed to enhance dramatically the safety of machines running OS X.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 13 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k