What happened to Save As?

It's the way several developers understand the rules applying to apps supposed to be distributed thru the MAS.

"Several developers" does not equal "all".

Even Apple isn't applying their new paradigm to all of their own apps. It was noted just a day or two ago in another thread that XCode in Lion does indeed include the ability to choose whether to use Save As, or Duplicate/Autosave.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3708458?answerId=17647514022#17647514022

I dropped neoOffice and replaced it by LibreOffice which from my point of view is better matching the operating system.

elol wrote:

We need a full statement of direction from Apple as to where they intend to go and what they expect other applications to do. It this only applies to apple products tell us.

Apple requirements apply to products delivered thru MAS.

Users will be free to make these choices:

(1) use only applications delivered thru the MAS with their embedded signature

(2) accept to installed applications with an embedded signature delivered out of the MAS

(3) accept every applications

The level of safety decrease according the user's choice.

As for the introduction of the IOS features some are great but if you are business user Government Audit(tax etc) requirements will be to prove all the time that changes are kept track off, what changes you made and how you got to where you are. just imagine QUICKBOOKS manking hourly changes without telling me. (or databases with links ets)

If you made no change, AutoSave save nothing.

If you made no change, Versions save nothing.

Differences between both features :

AutoSave save the entire document on itself. I'm not fond of that because if something fails during the process, the document may become unreadable.

Versions is designed to store only the changes made since the late version storing.

I studied its exact behavior for iWork apps, not for others.

I described this behavior in « Versions as a recovery tool »

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3303794

My understanding of Versions behavior allowed me to build tools allowing every users to extract a version from the hidden folder if the document itself became unreadable as written below.

As iWork corrupted documents aren't rare (I receive at least one per week) this feature is really useful.

Serious Database applications like FileMaker or 4th dimension already apply AutoSave for years.

If you don't want that versions datas remain on your HD, you may easily get rid of them.

I wrote this script to do that :

--{code}

--[SCRIPT delete_versions]

(*

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France)

2011/08/29

*)

property redemarrageRequis : true

tell application "System Events" to set les_volumes to name of every disk whose local volume is true

repeat with un_volume in les_volumes

set ledossier to un_volume & ":.DocumentRevisions-V100:"

tell application "System Events" to set maybe to exists disk item ledossier

if maybe then

set cheminUnix to quoted form of POSIX path of ledossier

do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix with administrator privileges

delay 2

do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix

delay 2

do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix

try

tell application "Finder" to delete (ledossier as alias)

end try

end if

end repeat

if redemarrageRequis then

set redemarrageRequis to false

tell application "System Events" to restart

else

set redemarrageRequis to true

end if

--=====

--[/SCRIPT]

--{code}

CAUTION: this one force you to restart because deleting these datas fool the system and it refuse to save documents.

Here is a bare version which doesn't restart but shutdown.

Use it as a substitute of the Shutdown menu item.

--{code}

--[SCRIPT delete versions and shutdown]

(*

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France)

2012/02/23

*)

tell application "System Events" to set les_volumes to name of every disk whose local volume is true

repeat with un_volume in les_volumes

set ledossier to un_volume & ":.DocumentRevisions-V100:"

tell application "System Events" to set maybe to exists disk item ledossier

if maybe then

set cheminUnix to quoted form of POSIX path of ledossier

do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix with administrator privileges

delay 2

do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix

delay 2

do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix

try

tell application "Finder" to delete (ledossier as alias)

end try

end if

end repeat

tell application "System Events" to shut down

--=====

--[/SCRIPT]

--{code}

Late, the Apple requirements are delivered to developers.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) jeudi 23 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Omar.KN wrote:

But every positive input is welcome, it doesn't have to be that thick.

(Even if the contributor thinks we - the rest - are stupid, at least he shouldn't show it),

better still would be to explain new concepts (such as Auto Save and Resume) patiently in a way people could understand and appreciate.

All of us understand the concepts of Auto Save and Resume perfectly well. (And as Kurt noted, explaining the "under-the-hood" mechanisms by which they work really isn't relevant to the discussion here.)

We understand the concepts, and would probably be in favor of them if it weren't for the fact that they've come at the cost of a very useful Mac function, Save As. What we're saying is that the trade-off isn't worth it. The cost of having Auto Save/Versioning is too high to pay if it means we can't have Save As.

And it's not just that...the new paradigm also plays havoc with viewing files in Preview, performing destructive editing of a file against the user's will. I agree a thousandfold with Kurt's earlier comment — they're OUR files. We should get to decide when and if they're saved.

Therefore, we should be able to choose to work with our files in the same way we've been accustomed to for as many as 27 years. Why? Because for our purposes, it simply works better that way.

Meanwhile, we've had yet another real-world example of this — markinbali's comparison of using Duplicate vs. Save As to perform the same task. Since you believe that the new paradigm is the wonderful wave of the future, I'm curious, tonza — why did you choose to make no comment on markinbali's post? You visited after the time he made it. Please tell us why you chose to ignore it.

_IF_ Apple keeps on moving toward a user-friendly direction and serving the Apple user community, especially the professionals, such explaining will be useful and understandable.

However here there are doubts. It may be that Apple is moving toward the general mass customer segment à là iOS and Digital Restrictions Management. And we have heard about how Apple has discontinued Final Cut Pro a year ago and made it a much simple application, forcing the movie professionals to change over to Adobe Premiere, etc.

Apple will lose a lot if they want ignore their community and only look for the dollars.

I share your concern, and add to it my anger. Which is very unusual. During my nearly 24 years as a Mac user, I have evangelized tirelessly for the platform and its superiority. So it's an odd and uncomfortable position for me to be in.

Apple needs to do the right thing and jettison this "We know what's best for all users, and we intend to ignore anyone who's unhappy" position they've taken.

Give it up. Your credibility in this thread is less than zero.

You've had several opportunities to answer any number of pointed questions I've posed to you, and you haven't done so. Each was a question that was very relevant to the discussion going on here.

That you've chosen to pretend that the questions were never even posed leads to the obvious conclusion is that you turn tail and run whenever anything challenges your pre-conceived notions.

By ignoring these many questions (for your convenience, here is a link to justone post out of several in which they've been asked), you also have confirmed that the characterization of you in this post is entirely accurate.

Give it up. Your credibility in this thread is less than zero.

More than yours.

You've had several opportunities to answer any number of pointed questions I've posed to you, and you haven't done so. Each was a question that was very relevant to the discussion going on here.

The more you bullied, insulted, patronised and misrepresented, the less I became interested in helping you. You weren't worth my time.

That you've chosen to pretend that the questions were never even posed leads to the obvious conclusion is that you turn tail and run whenever anything challenges your pre-conceived notions.

Only because I answered your questions already and didn't want to repeat myself. Go read the posts again... all my answers to your questions are already done.

"By ignoring these many questions (for your convenience, here is a link to justone postout of several in which they've been asked), you also have confirmed that the characterization of you in this post is entirely accurate."

It doesn't. That statement was made on the basis of one act that doesn't characterise me at all.

I'm getting fed up with your stinking attitude. Like I told your co-conspirator before, the same applies to you.

—tonza

tonza wrote:

Only because I answered your questions already and didn't want to repeat myself. Go read the posts again... all my answers to your questions are already done.

Really?

OK:

Please explain, in simple terms, why Save As is a "bad idea." (Particularly in light of the fact that, for 27 years, it was a very good and useful idea, serving the needs of millions of users.)

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

Please explain, in simple terms, why taking several additional steps to accomplish the same thing Save As used to accomplish is a "good idea."

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

tonza: And in a few years when Macs work more like iOS devices today, people will be appreciating these advances even more.

Only if they accept the notion that a desktop computer should function in exactly the same way as a device with a tiny screen that you hold in your hand. (And thus, that it should be crippled by having things that can't be accomplished effectively on such a tiny device forced upon it.)

I don't accept this notion...and I'm hardly alone.

I'd love to hear your argument in favor of it.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you addressed this point? I must have missed it.

Please explain in simple terms how a method of working with one's files (in this case, basing a new document on an older one) that takes several more steps to accomplish what used to be accomplished in two steps is a "more efficient, more effective and more useful" way of doing things.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

I'm constantly amazed (and amused) when people who obviously have no experience in real-world situations confidently state what those of us who do work in real-world situations "need" or don't need.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you addressed this point? I must have missed it.

tonza: I dare say that in all your efforts in delivering your rather interesting style of remarks to me in particular, you still haven't some to a solution to your problem, have you?

I stated a simple solution to my problem in two earlier posts, and have stated it again in this one. Are you really this dense, or do you just like to hear yourself talk?

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

In my workflow, "micromanagement" of my files is a great plus. I can group files related to the same project in a folder together, even though they've been created with different apps. Or I can see a number of files created with different apps that are clustered around a given creation/modification date, and glean valuable information from this.

What suggestion do those gleefully looking forward to the day when "...the entire concept of a disk filing system [is] redundant" have for those of us who have happily and productively worked this way for decades?

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

As I've explained many times (as have others), my only priority is to provide for the option to continue using a system that has worked very, very well for Mac users over the last 27+ years. The system can "change" all it wants to, as long as we're given that option.

You have yet to demonstrate that a) this is a bad idea; and b) that it can't be done.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you addressed this point? I must have missed it.

Meanwhile, we've had yet another real-world example of this — markinbali's comparison of using Duplicate vs. Save As to perform the same task. Since you believe that the new paradigm is the wonderful wave of the future, I'm curious, tonza — why did you choose to make no comment on markinbali's post? You visited after the time he made it. Please tell us why you chose to ignore it.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

Look at my message dated :

11 avr. 2012 08:07 (in response to Dennis Burnham)

You will see that it was edited by Hosts.

If you want details, send a mail to my mailbox (click my blue name to get my address)

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 11 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

If I understand well, you want to get my answer.

Alas, as I wrote in the message which Kurt Lang reported to Apple, I was asked to no longer respond to such questions.

I apply the rule, no less, no more.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) dimanche 15 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Could this guy possibly get any more ridiculous?

How were you "applying the rule" in all of these instances?

Re: What happened to Save As?

Re: What happened to Save As?

Re: What happened to Save As?

Re: What happened to Save As?

Re: What happened to Save As?

How convenient for you! It seems that you "apply the rule" only when the questions posed to you are too embarrassing or uncomfortable for you to answer.

And who could blame you?

I sure wouldn't want to be put in the position of having to explain exactly why it's a good thing when a system change makes a significant percentage of users' ability to work on the Mac more difficult. (We've had countless examples of this here and in other threads. Funny, you never comment on these either. You just whistle and look the other way.)

I sure wouldn't want to be put in the position of having to explain why instituting a change that would make 100 percent of the Mac user base happy is a bad idea, or why it's a much better idea to keep a change that will result in a percentage of the user base abandoning Apple-branded software, delaying upgrading their hardware, or deserting the Mac platform altogether. (We've had numerous examples of all three in this very thread, and elsewhere too.)

You've been put in this position many times in the past. Only back then, you didn't have your (alleged) "Apple told me not to comment" excuse to fall back on. So back in those days, you simply ignored those quesitons altogether, and pretended they had never been asked.

This is simply your latest ploy to avoid personal accountability. It speaks volumes about you.

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

So, I feel free to write what I think even if I was asked to don't do.

Great! Then I'll look forward to your reply to this post of mine.

You know, the one you said earlier that (alas!) you couldn't respond to. What's stopping you now?

DChord568 wrote:

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

When a company present an application matching the rules to be in the list then deliver a feature breaking these rules, it's just robbery. The victims are developers whose apps really match the rules.

When we play a game we must apply the rules.

What would you say if during a match of football, some players were taking the ball with their hands ?

I would say that it is the referee's job to call a foul on the offending player.

Notice, I said "the referee" — that is, the official who is being paid by the league to do a very specific job.

Yvan, please answer these questions very specifically:

1) If you were in the stands at a match, and witnessed such an infraction, would you personally run out onto the field waving your arms? Or would you let the referee do his

No problem to answer : my rule is « absolutely no sport » so I never enter a stadium.

DChord568 wrote:

2) Where did you get the idea it was YOUR job to police the Mac App Store? Are you an Apple employee?

I have a brain since 1943/12/31 and use it as I want.

No, I'm not an Apple employee. I am my own boss since 1980/01/01. Ni dieu, ni maître.

3) Is it part of your job description to engage in the activities you have in reporting offending Mac apps? Is there somehow a shortage of Apple employees available to perform this task?

As I am my own boss, I'm acustomed to decide by myself what I want to do and when I want to do that.

I didn't asked Apple to remove an app from the list.

I asked them if it's matching the rules upon which the list is based.

I wish to add that Pixelmator editor is carefully silent about the option to disable AutoSave in the infos related to the new version delivered in the MAS. He just describe it on his WebSite. So, yes, I think that Apple may missed that.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) samedi 28 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Please : Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

Please, for iWork's applications dedicated to iOS, go to :

https://discussions.apple.com/community/app_store/iwork_for_ios

Looks like it's official..."Save As" will return in Mountain Lion.

Go to http://www.apple.com/osx/whats-new/features.html and scroll down three sections to Auto Save.

I will want to see for myself that this works in exactly the same way as it always has, and will also want to see what difference the Revert to Last Saved and Prompt to Save options will make.

I agree with Kurt that it would be much better if you could just turn the whole **** business off and have everything work as it always has. But that's probably too much to hope for.

It does at least appear that Apple has listened to our pleas to a certain extent.

I wonder if we'll see a dish of French Crow served up anytime soon here? My bet is no.

Almost one year ago...

KOENIG Yvan VALLAURIS (France)

This change is perfectly coherent.

It's you which used the word idiotic to define the choice made by Apple.

They are perfectly free to make the changes which they want as well as you are perfectly free to drop their products.

Alas for you, every third product will be updated to take benefit of Lion new features.

Some will do that the way used by xCode, others will do that the way used by TextEdit, Keynote, Numbers, Pages…

The logic behind the changes were explained several times but you just prove that you are unable to understand such simple things.

I guess that you are ready to switch to Mer.oSoft products !

Today Apple reintroduced Save As... as an innovative feature of Mountain Lion (ROTFL - simply ridiculous: http://www.apple.com/osx/whats-new/features.html)

I guess "This change is perfectly coherent." was not the completely true...

@raftr - Thanks for your posts, very helpful. (I still have SL, waiting as long as I can to upgrade.)

I noticed in the screenshot you provide, those two options "Ask to keep..." and "Close windows..." are two options I would enable, too. But, how cruel of Apple to hide them in preferences like that (thank goodness they are there tho!!). They are under General, not labeled - should be "Turn off AutoSave" (is that what it's doing basically?) and "Turn off Restore Windows." I think it's kind of sneaky. A lot of basic users won't find it. But, we're all learning Persistence can pay off with Apple!!

I'm with you guys though - happy to see there's an easy way to switch Duplicate with Save As! Happy these two options are available somewhere, and look forward to the day when AutoSave and Versions has a option to be TURNED OFF! It probably doesn't help that I don't have Lion at all, but AutoSave and Versions and Duplicate are so confusing [for me]!!

And, how sneaky of them to kill Stupidd Looser's Terminal commands to kill/disable AutoSave, Versions, and Resume!! I wonder, which is better? @raftr, if you don't switch Duplicate and SaveAs, do the Terminal commands still work? Now we have to choose between which we have to give up?

We have to keep telling Apple; we can't let them think this satisfies us!! Keep sending in those feedbacks!

http://www.apple.com/feedback/

And again, thanks to all who posted here, it has been so helpful. (I could name names, but the list is really long...! LOL!)

Thanks ericsiegel01. You gave a very good, clear, simple, example of what it does. And, that is NOT good!

Have you tried/tested what RonL posted? Here:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4157637?tstart=0

Would it help?

BTW, I just posted a tutorial on how to succesfully disable Auto Save, Versions and bring back Save As in Mountain Lion:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4166543?tstart=0

It includes a workaround for the error messages that made TextEdit useless after disabling the Lion crap.