What happened to Save As?

Regarding wasted time, you miss the point, Koenig:

Neither you nor I would waste any time at all if the menu commands that we learned how to use in 1984 were not suddenly changed, and without any explanation for what new series of menu commands has replaced them, why, and what the alleged benefits are.

I have learned that the basis for these changes is to make auto-save behave like Time Machine, allowing each and every document to have its own history. I don't doubt that for some users and for some applications/documents, that could be a benefit. I simply don't agree that it is a one-size fits all solution for all users and all documents created by the app in question, whichever it is.

When some software apps offer new menus or workspace features in a new version, they allow the user to upgrade but continue to use the old familiar tools until/unless they are ready to advance.

What Apple might have considered is a Preference that turns auto-save on/off and to preserve the Save As command for those who want to use it. My point is that the engineers shove these things down our throats without the real-world experience of the users.

Moreover, in a workplace, a supervisor bears the burden of lost productivity, confusion, and errors caused by numerous users -- or incurs the cost of re-training everybody, with no apparent benefit.

Thank you Koenig for explaining it which is why I came here in the first place. Now I am working in "the new way", and I can live with it, but it does not really suit me, especially in Preview which I use to quickly crop or reduce the size of large numbers of graphics files. I never need to go back a step, and I am safe because I work with folders copied from my master archive. If I spend time working with one image, then I use Pixelmator.

My concern now is that other apps like Rapidweaver and Pixelmator will go the same way when they upgrade. If they do I hope someone is listening to Dennis and provide a preference to preserve Save As, which actually is still there hidden away behind Duplicate and disguised as Save....

Better go - don't want to waste time here - need to get back to using the apps as I have been forced to use them.

Jeff Shenk makes a bigger point than he may realize by saying "got used to it." It's more profound than that. An entire generation of people didn't "get used to" computers the way they "got used to" the obsolesence of carbon paper and white-out. Instead, they LEARNED how to use the operating system and its user interface to perform tasks that manage the way their documents are organized on the computer.

I totally "get" the Steve Jobs philosophy that we should not have to figure out where to put things and how to locate them, as iTunes does it with MP3 files. But word processing documents are different, because users need to file them away differently than a jukebox. Consider this: in the original Mac OS (1984) and for many years until OS-X took it away, there was a Finder command called "Put Away" that I used to teach to user groups all the time. You could thow things on your desktop at random, all day long, for interim use and then in one keystroke, return them to their original folders with the Put Away command. You would be astonished at how many people never learned that feature and would spend/waste hours each week/month/year drilling down into the HD to open the folder where something came from just to manually put it back by dragging it. They really could give us back the Put Away command … why not?

Today, they want auto-save to give us the same backup protection that Time Machine offers, by keeping multiple "editions" of documents, the way Google-Docs does for documents that are edited online. I'm not saying that this is a bad idea. I am saying it is an idea that needs to be TAUGHT and LEARNED. Individuals who work on Lion systems because their company management upgraded their computers are caught by surprise and that means a productivity loss for the organization while they become frustrated and make errors that need correction. Instead, when Lion is installed and used for the first time, the user should be able to watch a short video that explains these things so they can get right to work. Apple makes so many great videos; why not something called "Learn what's new and different in Lion" ??

"Auto-save this document" should become a user option for any app or document that supports it. If Auto-save is turned on, either at the document level or the application level, the menu commands could toggle accordingly.

The problem with the software engineering these days is that they don't consider the opinions of real users before implementing ideas that may be fine in the laboratory, but not so excellent in real life.

Another feature of Apple products is the existence of a group of people who just can't let any criticism of Apple go undefended. Apple will always be right, and voicing your concern will always be a waste of time that's better spent getting with the program.

It's not your computer, it's Apple's, and the sooner you understand that that better. Discussion of the pros and cons of Apple features shows weakness to the enemy (the Microsoft-centric world), and weakness is unacceptable in an Apple user. If you don't like how a feature works, you are flawed, not Apple. Apple products don't contain flaws, only users contain flaws.

Dissent is not allowed. Dissent is a flaw.

Removing Save As is a MAJOR HASSLE. There is no easy workaround. Why was that changed???

I use the format of a previous document to fill in some updated information and save it under a distinctly different name - I do this almost daily for my business. Are you kidding me?!?! Why was this removed?

For a couple reasons, this is more efficient for my uses than going to a Template each time.

Bring back SAVE AS!!!

There have been many posts about this. I, and many others absolutely hate the entire Duplicate/Autosave/Versions thing. So far, this only affects apps Apple writes, and is actually a choice vendors can make in their software to include Apple's new paradigm, ignore it, or give the user a choice, as Graphic Converter does. It make no sense at all why Apple didn't give users the same choice with their software. It's your computer. How you use it and your workflow should always be your choice.

Hello

Third Lion's update and TextEdit & Preview didn't retieved you dear Save As… 😕

It seems that it’s really gone for ever.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) jeudi 2 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.2

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

And your post is helpful how?

Exactly as yours !

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) jeudi 2 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.2

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Not even close. Mine denotes facts.

1) Not everyone loves Duplicate. Not only don't like it, don't want anything to do with it.

2) Noted that you can get back to your workflow by using apps provided by third party vendors.

3) Noted that Apple breaks the long standing computing guidelines by breaking the cardinal rule of the user having choice.

Your post? Nothing more than yet another in a series of snide remarks extolling how perfect Duplicate is. If it were that great, would there really be 226 million pages on the subject? The majority trying to find out how to turn Duplicate/Autosave/Versions off?

Apple is perfectly aware of that.

If they wanted to make changes, they had time to do that since the Lion's delivery.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) jeudi 2 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.2

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Apple is perfectly aware of that.

If they wanted to make changes, they had time to do that since the Lion's delivery.

Thank you. That is a much more reasoned response.

Yes, I'm sure they are more than aware of the complaints. Why they haven't listened to the people who buy their products (and help keep them in business with that cash) is baffling.

Apple seems to be on a design course to turn desktop computers into oversized iPads. I'm sorry, but that's a really stupid way to use a desktop computer. A computer I use for Photoshop, Premiere Pro and many other professional apps requires much more user control over how you use that computer. An iPad isn't even a close comparison, and I wish they would stop trying to turn the Mac OS into a bigger version of the iOS.

I can't remember if I am the person who started this thread or not, but I feel as if my posts in this thread have been echoed by enough intelligent people who are also committed to the Apple computing platform that I should not just shrug and give up. Unless our collective voices are heard by Apple engineers and senior executives, they will continue to blunder this way.

The disappearance of SAVE AS is having the same success in the marketplace as NEW COKE. When people didn't like New Coke, however, they could purchase Pepsi. You can't do that day by day with your computer and I don't know any Apple fans who are willing to buy a PC and begin using Windows to overcome this problem.

10.7.2 is still early in the Lion life-cycle. Just because Apple didn't "listen" to this chorus during their feedback cylce about 10.7.1 doesn't mean it isn't going to happen in a future update. As I recall, 10.7.1 was almost immediate after 10.7.0 and I doubt many users even discovered this issue by that time -- I could be mistaken.

I'm not going to stop using Pages or Text Edit because of the Duplicate/Save a Version vs Save As issue. I'm going to continue learning how auto-save is a feature that could be of some value to me.

But I'm not going to relent in my determination to make Apple aware of the real-world consequences of changes that are made to the fundamentals that users have learned since the early 1980's - and the resulting productivity losses for organizations who have workers affected by these changes that are neither explained in the "Welcome to Lion" upgrade nor are they anywhere to be found on Apple's support site.

The way this change was forced upon users is like someone dropping an ecstasy tablet into his date's cocktail.

"The disappearance of SAVE AS is having the same success in the marketplace as NEW COKE."

The disappearance of Save As... is not a marketing one. It's a technical one.

—tonza

It seems that you missed that I wrote after 10.7.3 delivery.

Apple know that several users are ranting but they know that they made a reasoned technical choice and I assume that they will not move back.

As I wrote in an other thread, they took

less than 48 hours to repair a but in Security Update 2012-01 Snow Leopard

less than 72 hours to remove the delta updater 10.7.3 which was accompanied by a serious drawback on several machines

but they didn't re-introduce Save As… in TextEdit and Preview which are two components of the system.

It seems clear that the game is ended.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 6 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.2

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k