What happened to Save As?

tonza...

thank you for your reply....

but we will need your help as everyone else to move over to the new architectures. And we need someone like you who obviously like to read and research, then show us where to find the important details and how to use these tools

I too have used apple II, Lisa macplus and all.... In fact I was the technology manager for one of the largest banks in North America. My job . Evaluating, introducing new hardware, software etc including maintenance of software/hardware, managed the largest test facility for one thousand programmers etc. Likewise the first in-house time sharing facility. I know about change, having to introduce/manage radical changes and the staff who did all the detailed work to introduce this to programmers, end users and all. You do not just roll over everyone and shock them. You educate, train and evolve slowly into a new world where everyone's job depends on you and the tools you give them

My main challenge/problem in the corperate world: my staff also bought thousands of PC's add main frame IBM's and I had the only Mac in the organization on my desk and I used it to show what I and the end users were looking for we got..... windows 3.1

so much for my past No more(promise) I am now semi retired. owned an art gallery and have hundreds of art images that I need to look after for my clients who expect the same identical images/prints to be available forever. No accidents etc..

I am now at the users end. Getting on in years. Need to get the job done by myself. Every lost hour, every mistake costs me money and time.

this is why I use forums etc.. to get help, assistance, and some logical direction......

cheers elo

tonza wrote:

What, so now you want me to write something?

Um...usually that's how an exchange of ideas works. One person posts something...the next reacts and posts something in reply to the ideas advanced...the conversation continues based on an exchange of those ideas.

Your method, unfortunately, is to ignore the majority of ideas others post and just carry on with your own agenda, as if those ideas had never been put forth. That's fine, but it leaves the impression that you're unable to withstand challenges to your own ideas, so you just ignore them and hope no one will notice.

We notice.

OK, look. What I write here has only been met with insults and a poor effort to engage in an understanding...

Apparently your definition of "understanding" is "only my ideas matter...yours are so insignificant I won't even acknowledge them."

IMHO, any "insults" you've received here have been earned.

...obviously, your priorities are to ensure that your system doesn't change so as not to break the workflows that you have been using, and I can understand that very well.

As I've explained many times (as have others), my only priority is to provide for the option to continue using a system that has worked very, very well for Mac users over the last 27+ years. The system can "change" all it wants to, as long as we're given that option.

You have yet to demonstrate that a) this is a bad idea; and b) that it can't be done.

There is simply no reason this has to be an "either/or" paradigm.

For me to explain to you what all this change is about is going to take something like a thick text book in order to explain the concepts behind Auto Save and Resume. You need to understand that the changes that Apple have introduced in Lion is not just a change to the name of one solitary command in the "File" menu... it's a whole new architecture in managing user data. If Core Data means anything to you beyond its name, then you can understand where I'm coming from.

Granted, Save As is not going to work with every existing application on the market today, because to take advantage of Auto Save and Resume, an application has to be designed for it. Existing applications can't just use the new APIs and expect to work.

And there's also a need to change the expectations of how users use the new data management models in OS X Lion, just like Grand Central Dispatch and 64-bit computing changed the expectations of how users could (not) run older applications that needed Rosetta or Java or whatever legacy technologies were available prior. I just had a head-start on you: I own and use a Newton, have used OpenDoc before that, and used a Lisa before that. So I'm well familiar with what Lion and iOS have introduced.

These paragraphs have been answered by Kurt. I refer you to his statements...although it's likely you'll just ignore them too.

So I have decided not to say anything more about it.

Translation: I'm getting out before I embarrass myself any further. This way, I can continue to ignore statements I realize I have no answer for.

You've obviously made up your minds, and no amount of explaining is going to make you think any differently.

It might have helped had your "explaining" had anything whatsoever to do with the issues at hand.

Meanwhile, the irony of the last three words of your sentence above is delicious.

This thread is so entertaining!

Just googled the word "Drongo" - besides being a kind of bird, it is slang very frequently used in Australia to describe fellow citizens and it means "a stupid, inept, dimwit or slow-witted person". It is also used from time to time on computer forums to insult average apple users who just want to be reassured that apple software has not suddenly veared off the rails and is heading off in a direction that will prevent them from being able to work in a simple and logical way.

I also googled the term "core data" which is a framework Apple provides to developers that is described as a schema - driven object graph management and persistance framework" - oh, right, I suppose we should all know that and therefore be able to understand where Tonza is coming from.

And the morel of this story is that if you are a drongo and you want to continue eating the apple you have to swallow the core as well and like it.

markinbali wrote:

This thread is so entertaining!

Just googled the word "Drongo" - besides being a kind of bird, it is slang very frequently used in Australia to describe fellow citizens and it means "a stupid, inept, dimwit or slow-witted person".

Thus proving tonza's First Theorum:

Others insulting tonza = bad

tonza insulting others = good

About as logical as everything else he's posted here.

It is also used from time to time on computer forums to insult average apple users who just want to be reassured that apple software has not suddenly veared off the rails and is heading off in a direction that will prevent them from being able to work in a simple and logical way.

I also googled the term "core data" which is a framework Apple provides to developers that is described as a schema - driven object graph management and persistance framework" - oh, right, I suppose we should all know that and therefore be able to understand where Tonza is coming from.

And the morel of this story is that if you are a drongo and you want to continue eating the apple you have to swallow the core as well and like it.

Well-played!

@elol

>The thing that I have liked about communities and forums is that everyone is trying to help each other along.

Yes and they have helped! Why?

Because some of us know more (in an area concerned) than others, that's why we /they can help.

And this has been (part of) the strength of Apple: its Apple dedicated community.

Look back to the 90ies when Apple was almost done and gone.

@tonza

>For me to explain to you what all this change is about is going to take something like a thick text book in order to explain the concepts behind Auto Save and Resume.

But every positive input is welcome, it doesn't have to be that thick.

(Even if the contributor thinks we - the rest - are stupid, at least he shouldn't show it),

better still would be to explain new concepts (such as Auto Save and Resume) patiently in a way people could understand and appreciate.

_IF_ Apple keeps on moving toward a user-friendly direction and serving the Apple user community, especially the professionals, such explaining will be useful and understandable.

However here there are doubts. It may be that Apple is moving toward the general mass customer segment à là iOS and Digital Restrictions Management. And we have heard about how Apple has discontinued Final Cut Pro a year ago and made it a much simple application, forcing the movie professionals to change over to Adobe Premiere, etc.

Apple will lose a lot if they want ignore their community and only look for the dollars.

/ Omar KN

What an entertaining thread! I am new to Mac. Having a few problems that don't feel right. So I come here.

When I came across this thread I was stunned that Save As was gone! But after reading Tonza's detailed reasoning behing Duplicate and Save a Copy functions, then trying it out in Pages, I like the change.

But there are some situations where Save As is the only thing that works best. It can still be done but in a multiple steps.

I don't see the harm of leaving Save As as an item in the File menu. But then again, when I duplicate, I get to see both docs on screen and I can make changes to one or the other and when I save them I can see the difference.

At first I was completely against it but Tonza made me re-evaluate the whole process and I like it! If the OS can be trusted to safely keep a history of changes we can revert to then this is a really good thing.

I don't usually turn so quickly. This is a good thing that I just proved to myself that I am not against changes for the betterment, AND that the few negative feelings I have about Lion is not based on any lingering bias towards Windows. 🙂

"That couldn't be any more wrong. Did you not notice the images showing how Neo Office, which has been around for a very long time, had no trouble not only implementing the new APIs, but also allow you to choose? Or Graphic Converter, which also allows you to use the new paradigm, or the standard workflow?"

I thought I'd respond to this because it has technical merit which I'd like to answer.

Neo Office probably doesn't use the new APIs, like BBEdit 10. They may have their own stuff which does something similar to what Lion does, but is hand-built themselves. Bare Bones does the same thing—I know because BBEdit 10 runs on Snow Leopard too, and can also auto-save and resume on that OS, too.

So, that statement "couldn't be any more wrong" couldn't be any more wrong.

—tonza

Neo Office probably doesn't use the new APIs, like BBEdit 10.

Probably? Boy, that sure sounds like proof! Why in the world would they bother to reinvent the wheel, tonza? The APIs are already there. Why would the makers of Graphic Converter do that?

You are WAY past grasping for straws with that answer and will say anything to be "right". Your "proof" is nothing more than bad guesses.

I know because BBEdit 10 runs on Snow Leopard too, and can also auto-save and resume on that OS, too.

And you actually have the gall to think that's proof of anything the makers of BBEdit are doing? You don't know anything. Gosh, then Microsoft must have been doing the same thing form years with Office. I wonder how they got Apple's code years ahead of the release of Lion?

So I have decided not to say anything more about it.

You are also, very unsurprisingly, a liar. Or, said another way (which fits you to a tee); "Better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

Hi:

Read here that Graphic Converter supported the opt-in or opt-out of version etc.

down loaded a trial and tested it. It works both ways. No problem

I then contacted Lemke and asked it the same features would be available on the APPSTORE

his reply

Hello,

Many thanks for your e-mail.

The Apple Store version does support this option, too.

Thorsten

(important note: please always include this complete email in your reply)

to means this implies that Apple may ask developers to install the new feaure but do no stop them from offering opt-out features.

cheers... elo

maybe after reading this information they will change their minds....

to means this implies that Apple may ask developers to install the new feature but do not stop them from offering opt-out features.

Correct. To be on the App Store, an app must support the new features, but that doesn't mean it's mandatory as the only option.

elol wrote:

Hi:

Read here that Graphic Converter supported the opt-in or opt-out of version etc.

down loaded a trial and tested it. It works both ways. No problem

I then contacted Lemke and asked it the same features would be available on the APPSTORE

his reply

Hello,

Many thanks for your e-mail.

The Apple Store version does support this option, too.

Thorsten

(important note: please always include this complete email in your reply)

to means this implies that Apple may ask developers to install the new feaure but do no stop them from offering opt-out features.

cheers... elo

maybe after reading this information they will change their minds....

Where is the link to where Graphic Converter discusses this? I don't see a link. Thanks - appreciated. Would like to read that.

Call me what you want, but your comments are indicative of what comes out in the wash. And your track record isn't looking good.

I said "probably" because I don't have Neo Office in order to do static code analysis on.

Have you got proof?

"You are also, very unsurprisingly, a liar."

Et tu.

—tonza

elol wrote:

Hi:

The thing that I have liked about communities and forums is that everyone is trying to help each other along.

Unfortunately, virtually every time I ask for help here some people try to convince me that what I'm asking for is impossible, backwards, or ludicris. People have told me that my questions and ideas are inferior, or make up problems that I never had (for example they tell me to stop using iCloud as a solution to a certain problem when I never used iCloud to begin with). I don't understand why people who work for Apple would allow this to happen. I feel like I'm asking a Scientologist a question when I come to Apple forums.

That's why I've enjoyed this thread. Because enough people have figured out that many Apple forums are currently useless too.

Bsss!

I really hope that this is the end of p e r s o n a l a t t a c k s on this forum.

Either from "us" criticizing the loss of "Save As" or from "the others" trying to rationalize Apple's exploits.

P e r s o n a l a t t a c k s are just as useless as anything else, and those who did it should excuse themselves.

Are we less than grown up kids?

PS: We want Apple to reintroduce "Save As" and to give the user a choice in this respect!

bw, Omar K N

RIGHT ON, Omar.KN! To both your points!!

Especially the one to Apple though!! 😀

p/s also thanks to Kurt for the Graphic Converter link! VERY informative. They actually explain some of the issue; including mentioning that the "versions" etc, can slow down your work with graphics. Interesting that they see this and Apple does not! Well, maybe they will finally get the idea with so many complaining.