What happened to Save As?

I don't like it either, Omar. But you do have to admit, if it weren't for tonza's ridiculous attitude towards, well, everyone, this would be a very civil thread.

As it is, I meant what I said. I will not respond to anything else tonza says for just the reasons you state.

Yes thanks to Kurt for the link. I downloaded Graphic Converter too. A lot of functions don't work in the trial version but it looks great. Save, Save As, and Duplicate are the default setting, and you can have Save a Version and Duplicate if you switch on the option in preferences.

So now I have a decent batch image converter. I've kept the old version of Pixelmator. I'm using Word and Excel 2008 which still work in Lion, and Rapidweaver has not introduced Save a Version yet (heaven forbid).

My next problem to sort out is Filemaker Pro but that's a different issue. There is no save command since it saves your data as you work so obviously they won't introduce versions.

Omar.KN wrote:

P e r s o n a l a t t a c k s are just as useless as anything else, and those who did it should excuse themselves.

Are we less than grown up kids?

Your last phrase is key. There would be nothing whatsoever personal about this thread if certain people would act like grown-ups.

A grown-up takes responsibility for his statements. When someone presents a challenge to one or more of his ideas, a grown-up responds to that challenge, and a dialog is initiated — an exchange of ideas during which different beliefs are put forth, each one supported by evidence.

Someone who is less than grown up, on the other hand, just goes blithely along as if his beliefs have never been subjected to any challenges — as if points against those he has made have never even been raised.

Believe me, I would much rather focus on the core issue of this thread, without letting personalities enter into the picture.

I'm perfectly OK with people disagreeing with my point of view. But those disagreements should be fully explored. If you truly have the courage of your convictions, then you meet and answer challenges to those convictions. Ignoring those challenges and simply restating your case doesn't cut it.

If pointed questions are raised in an exchange of ideas, and those questions aren't even acknowledged, much less answered, then it says a lot about the person who's being challenged — not the least of which is his or her ability to qualify as a grown-up.

DChord,

I think it is time to call a cease-fire. Argueing with Koenig and Tonza is a waste of time and we are in danger of driving people away from this thread. We nead to keep the topic alive. They are only just human end-users like us and number only two, while our opinion represents a huge number of people on this forum and probably a silent majority out there of millions!

There are three reasons not to argue with them:-

1. By continuing to engage with them we are giving them a louder voice than anyone else.

2. They are not capable of understanding our point of view.

I read back through the earlier thread "Save as missing in Lion". Koenig argued until he was blue in the face that standard documents should not be used as a starting point to create new ones and that only templates should be used. He based his argument on the fact that only templates were designed for that purpose. I ask you - can you image anyone never pulling out an existing document and editing it to create a new one - I mean nearly everybody does that at least some of the time and many people only work that way! Koenig would advocate writing the software to prevent people from being able to do that! His phylosophy is totally un-Apple. Intuitiveness and user-friendliness without the need for manuals is the main reason we are Apple users right?

This example shows you the way these guys think. They are all left brain and no right brain. They only think in numbers and code and therefore can not ever see the issues from our perspective.

3. They are intolerent and rude.

At one stage Koenig even got angry because someone accidentally mispelled his name, while Tonza calls people names like "Drongo"; I'm still laughing at that one!

One last thought. We can give people points for helpfullness. Are we allowed to take points away for negativity?

Hi Markinbali: you are right on with the work methods.

In mumbers I create an invoice for sale and return of giclee prints and pictures. I then go back later and all I do is call up the invoice and update it with sold and new items and save as and I now have a copy for each months sales to match receipts. Auditing rules insist on this ie the tax man. Guess what happens if you can not prove sales, bank statements etc?????

The new automatic version would kill me. it changes the work flow duplicate, save rename and then work. same end result but multiple steps and no guarantee I did not make a mistake and make a change by mistake.

I kmow you can lock the file etc. but all extra work, new steps to remember not easy. Imagine have to retrain 1600 clerks across Canada in multiple bank branches to the new work process. That is what evangilists and software staff in back rooms to not understand. We have end users to think about. We must make sure that what they do is auditable, secure etc....

for business purposes the new system does not create a safe guarantee workflow.

A comment... Bean the free word processor, easy to use, free have also implemented a version system of their own design. It is as an optional opt in........

cheers elo

Because it has taken me 15 minutes of plodding thru this thread to get to a hint of actual user info being passed along, let me just ask:

1. How can I control where my documents are saved, without "Save As"?

2. If I never used Time Machine & don't want to, how can I stop the unlock problem?

Mark --

Please understand that my entire purpose here is to do exactly what you've said...to "keep the topic alive" by focusing the discussion on Apple's boneheaded decision to force the new saving pardigm on everyone (and thus, to take away Save As).

It is a personal failing of mine, which I'll freely admit to, that people who don't adhere to the basic rules of discussion that should apply to one and all — that is, to take repsonsibility for one's views and acknowledge and respond to challenges to them — really hack me off.

We've seen this happen again and again, whether it's Yvan or tonza or the many other Apple apologists I've sparred with in threads such as this. At some point, they realize that their logic has been exposed as faulty and/or they've made statements that are unsupportable. But rather than owning up to this, they just run away and hide when the tough questions are posed. My most recent post provides graphic evidence of this phenomenon.

I agree that it's counterproductive when personalities become involved because it does take away from the main topic at hand. However, if you're looking to place blame for this happening, look directly at those who are dodging the tough questions...and who believe that the rules of logical discourse don't apply to them.

Again, to be clear — I very much want to discuss the topic of this thread, and agree with the goal of keeping the discussion narrowly focused without getting into personal attacks.

But what can you do with people whose approach is basically "This is my opinion. If you put forth a logical challenge to my views, I will ignore those objections and just keep right on stating my opinion. In my world, these challenges simply don't exist"?

@bubbasmom

When you first save a document you can choose where to put it. Afterwards, you have to duplicate then save. You get to choose where to save a fresh duplicate too. We can still do what Save As used to do but now it takes couple of extra steps.

@EVERYONE ELSE

People, I can't believe you've been devotedly feuding for so many months! Don't you know forum fights are like Israel and Palestine, no one will admit defeat, no one will apologise, or even agree to disagree. Just stop replying to each other and only help out people who ask for help. This thread is already so bloated with useless words that its hard to find anything useful being said on topic. So just stop it!

Hi: reply to myself

contacted Karelia software re the new Sandvox 2.5 and asked about versions and save as..

reply..

Hello,

If you are running Sandvox 2.5 that has already been implemented.

In Preferences there is an option to turn off Versions.

Hope this helps,

--

Heather Gosney

company@karelia.com

Seems everyone but apple have their heads on straight..

cheers elo

Any Mountain Lion developers reading this, please please please bring back "save as." i am beyond annoyed at the current process to try to save files. In fact, I think you should bring "save as" back and not charge for the update/back-to-the-future upgrade

HI:

understand your frustrations.

However...

I do the following and I suggest everyone do the same..

- contact each and every product developer you work with ie if you bought and use a pruduct send them an email and tell them that if they plan on implementing Version and do not implement an opt-in/opt-out you will drop them...

- then contact each and every product developer you are considering to buy from and ask them what their intentions are with respect to Versions etc. then say if they plan on offering Versions then they must include the options opt-in opt- out if not??? you will not buy their product

this is the only way the message will get through they have access to apple and will pass on the anger.... on the floor

cheers elo

Hi. sent an email to Karelia (sandvox) waiting for a reply...

Then I telephoned my supplier for Web site software Softpress "FREEWAY" spoke to the product manager.

His reply after listening to my concerns

They are looking at it as apple obviously is pushing the technology but when large files are being saved it may not be beneficial to use versions.

With time they may have to consider adding Versions etc. if Apple software/hardware demands it. But they will would like to provide an opt-in opt-out option.

Markinbali you should contact the developers of Rapidweaver and see what they are planning. Tell about our concerns.

As the Freeway Product manager said just imagine trying to create versions of sites that are up to 3-4 GB large.

I suggest that you all go back to every product you use and contact the product managers/or reps and voice your concerns. If NEOOFFICE and GraphicConverter do it - then why not everyone else.

Cheers elo

Further to my last reply :

This is the reply I got from the Product Manager at RealMac.

qte: "Thanks for your message, We're aware of the pitfalls with Duplicate (personally I don't like it!). Right now, it's not something we're looking to implement, however it's something we're always evaluating and may change in the longer term.

Kind regards, "unqte

So it sounds as if Rapidweaver users are safe for the time being, and Realmac at least understand our concerns.

Mark

Save the Save as... !

Latest on Apple's mission..(not control)

the app store now have a special heading/highlighted sections showing all the apps that conform to all of the specifactions and using/make available the options they are pushing.

even Graphics Converter offering the opt-in/opt-out feature is included...

in the quick link section (as of this moment) it is called "apps enhanced for OSx Lion

cheers elo

Everyone in this thread knows that I have been, since the beginning, a staunch advocate for the restoration of Save As in the File Menu. Today, I want to pose a question to those who believe that the new "versions" method of document handling is a positive progressive step forward. I had an incident occur in Pages which I would seriously like to learn how to avoid, so I thought, who better to ask than the pro's who disagree with me?

I had the need to re-open a Pages document that I had written several years ago. I can't recall when I wrote the letter or where I stored it. Therefore, I used Spotlight to locate it, and when it appeared in the Spotlight list, I clicked Show in Finder to see what else might appear in the same place. I then clicked the Pages document to open it, but I did not quickly enough note the original file date/time.

Pages has a feature that allows users to insert the Date and Time. I use it in most of my correspondence because it saves time to begin a letter with the correct date without typing it or referring to the calendar if you are unsure about what day it is. Unfortunately, however, the Pages auto-entered date remains dynamic in the document, so the next time you open the document, whether to edit it or just to read it (as was the case for me today) the date in the body of the letter changes to today's date. In the past, I could take a quick look at the Finder location of the document and see when it was last saved, and that would be my clue as to when the letter was written, and I could, if necessary, over-write the auto-date with the real date and re-save the letter.

But no, in Lion's version of Pages, the Finder date became updated to today's date the instant I opened the old document. And as I say, the date typed in the letter is also updated to today's date. So the question is: how can I determine when the original letter was actually written?

FYI, I tried using the Revert command as soon as I encountered the problem, and of course it opened the Time Machine style view and reported "no previous versions." Of course, there are no previous versions because the letter was written years ago, probably in Tiger or Leopard.

This morning I contacted Apple Care and they had no immediate answer either. Later in the call, the agent discovered that double-clicking the auto-date will open a pop-up menu that includes, among other options for the date, a checkbox that allows the document to preserve the date you insserted without updating it. Seems to me that ought to be the default behavior, but I won't know until tomorrow whether or not this feature works as expected.

In the meantime, maybe one of the supporters of the new Versions method can tell me what would be the best way to manage documents like correspondence in the new world order? When inserting a date, if you must always double click it to open a dialog to uncheck a box to keep the date constant, wouldn't it just be faster to type the date manually?