What happened to Save As?

Simple

I never use the application's insert date feature because it doesn't default to the wanted time format.

I use the insert date time service available in the free Word Service.

This way, the date time is fixed and is not modified on later openings.

You are complaining upon the change applied by AutoSave but you forgot to write that the you disabled the "lock files which weren't open for more than two weeks".

If you left this useful feature active, your document wouldn't have been autosaved.

Before Lion, a lot of users already faced the described feature thru an other channel.

They opened an old document like yours then print it.

When they closed it, they got the "Wan't you to save the doc" dialog and they clicked OK or press return.

The new scheme is perfectly consistent and breaking one component was just playing with matches.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 11 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

<Edited by Host>

stefano67 wrote:

even simpler: avoid Lion and pages altogether

Well, I've taken a hybrid approach to this.

Pages is my word processor of choice, and has been ever since it came out. When the Classic environment breathed its last and I had to give up my beloved WriteNow, Pages came the closest as a logical replacement. I would give up writing altogether before I would use Word.

Because of the loss of Save As, I have "avoided" Lion in my work environment, and will continue to do so unless the option to restore Save As and eschew Auto Save and Versioning is made available.

I was unable to avoid Lion at home, as I had to replace an aging Mac and had no choice when buying a new one — Lion was pre-installed, and I don't feel confident enough nor I do I have the will to jump through the many hoops that would be necessary to get Snow Leopard running on it.

As I seldom do critical word processing at home, I've managed OK. But I have thousands of legacy documents in Pages at work, and furthermore, I like Pages and want to continue working in it.

I refuse to go through the nonsense necessary in Lion to arrive at the same result Save As gives you in Snow Leopard (i.e., six steps vs. two steps). For now, I can carry on as before in Snow Leopard, as there are no other Lion features so compelling that I feel the need to upgrade.

At some point down the road, though, my work computer will have to be replaced, and I honestly don't know what I'll do then if Apple has persisted in forcing Auto Save/Versioning upon its apps, with no option to disable it.

In the course of this long debate, both here and in other threads (and it other forums as well), I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out another change in the history of working on a Mac that is as radical as the change in Saving paradigm introduced in Lion. I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out a change that has resulted in a greater uproar from the Mac community than this one.

Not a single one of Lion's defenders has answered these questions — including the loudest of the bunch, whom we've just heard from again here. While they talk big otherwise, they don't have the courage to address these questions...they just ignore them. (Watch now as this happens yet again.)

Similarly, when people come forth with real-world examples of how this change has wreaked havoc with their workflows and actually resulted in destruction of their data, Lion's defenders just whistle and look the other way, rather than acknowledging that their "perfect" system has some very obvious flaws.

What's disturbing is that, to-date anyway, Apple itself seems to be taking this same approach — that is, to ignore the uproar and carry on with their "we know what's best for you" attitude.

I also used Pages for a while. It was ok, but once Lion came up (I installe dit and removed it after 2 days - I also got my money back from Apple) I decided to stop using Pages and all the other autoslave applications, simply because I do not know how long I am going to use Apple.

So I got back to OpenOffice/NeoOffice/LibreOffice that fit 90% of my needs. For some "advanced" presentations I got sadly back to PowerPoint.

My oldest Mac died a couple of weeks ago. No Snow Leopard machines are available today so I decided not to buy an Apple computer yet. Instead I installed Fedora 16 on an old (3.5 yrs) desktop and it is working extremely fine. And incredibly fast.

Hi:

I also do not use pages anymore.

I now use Bean and if really necessary NeoOffice

the hazzle of the new environment and especially having to continue to remember what to do with old documents is not worth it.

I also have the replacement for Numbers ready NeoOffice

looking at Microsoft office though.....

cheers elo

Hi again

there is a online service available that will convert iwork documents..

Have not tried it .. sent one complex document to test waiting for results... no clue

one way to get out... ??????? complex long. but it is there....

www.zamzar.com

cheers elo

ps.... let us know

I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out another change in the history of working on a Mac that is as radical as the change in Saving paradigm introduced in Lion. I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out a change that has resulted in a greater uproar from the Mac community than this one.

I suspect you wanted your answer from one of the defenders of Lion, but I will give you this perspective, using hardware, not software, as an example of radical changes.

When Apple brought out the first iMac, it caused an uproar by the absence of a "floppy" disk drive. Apple's position was that if it's small enough to fit on a diskette, you can email it, and if it's bigger than what fits on a diskette, you should be using CD's. People who had a library of "stuff" (including lots of pre-OS-X installation software that still ran on the first iMac under System 9) had to make some kind of connection to a legacy machine or maybe purchase a USB accessory. But, a major difference between that example and the subject of this thread is that you had the choice of buying an iMac with full knowledge what you were getting into. Not quite the same with the Lion upgrade.

Something similar is going on today: we still have a mouse, but we are being gradually moved toward trackpads as pointing devices that support "gestures". Trackpads are obviously less expensive to manufacture, and probably not as susceptible to mechanical failure or warranty replacements. So while I can see that I may someday have to convert from a mouse to a trackpad, at least for the time being, I have the choice and I can take my time to learn the gestures and use a trackpad at my own pace without it being forced upon me.

The AppleCare agent who handled my Pages issue this morning made this remark when discussing the auto entry of dates: "We like to give our customers as many options as possible." My response: whoever removed Save As from the File menu was not acting in a manner consistent with that philosophy.

DChord568 wrote:

Not a single one of Lion's defenders has answered these questions — including the loudest of the bunch, whom we've just heard from again here. While they talk big otherwise, they don't have the courage to address these questions...they just ignore them. (Watch now as this happens yet again.)

I apologizes but I was asked by Apple to stop responding to your questions.

As they own these discussions forum I had no other choice than doing what they want.

I passed the info to one oponent but he didn't pass it to yourself and choose to alert Apple about the fact that I posted to his mailbox.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 11 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Another feature that Apple is removing is the CD/DVD drive. The MacBook Air does not have one and neither does the new Mac Mini. The MacBook Pro and the Mac Pros still have them. I don't think removing them from the Mac Mini was a good idea, that's why I bought mine just before the new ones came out. The Mac Mini is stationary on your desk!! You have to buy an external drive now for Mac Minis and the price didn't really come down to match that.

Anyway, Apple seems to want to make our desktop systems into iPads or iPhone clones. It's just not the same. While some things can be the same, others must remain different!!

...just my two cents.

My opinion is to have the "Save As" "Auto Save" (file menu) options in Lion. I hope Apple will make it easier to choose. I've sent my feedback.... here's hoping they hear us all!!

Thank goodness Adobe agrees. In case you hadn't seen it, here's post of mine from another thread.

Just to show that Autosave/Versions can be done right, download and install the Adobe Photoshop CS6 beta, which can be run as a 30 day trial.

In the preferences, you can choose to turn Autosave on or off. With it on, you have a sub choice where can even specify how much time it waits before saving a version so it's not trying to save every little thing you do.

Here's the best part. Even with Autosave on, Save As is still in the menus. They didn't even bother with Apple's way of doing Duplicate since there has been a Duplicate feature in PS for decades.

So you have the best combination of how this should work. Save As for quick change off in a new direction and still being able to use Autosave if you want to. Someone at Apple has a serious bug about how they think user's should manage their work, in regards to Apple's own apps. Adobe clearly, and correctly understands that it's up to the user to decide that, not the OS.

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

DChord568 wrote:

Not a single one of Lion's defenders has answered these questions — including the loudest of the bunch, whom we've just heard from again here. While they talk big otherwise, they don't have the courage to address these questions...they just ignore them. (Watch now as this happens yet again.)

I apologizes but I was asked by Apple to stop responding to your questions.

As they own these discussions forum I had no other choice than doing what they want.

I passed the info to one oponent but he didn't pass it to yourself and choose to alert Apple about the fact that I posted to his mailbox.

This strikes me as extremely curious.

Since Apple representatvies obviously look in on these threads to the extent they take it upon themselves to control their content, I would invite an Apple representative to contact me personally (something they have never done) as they have you, to explain why they asked this of you.

I'm not looking for a fight — I'm merely looking for as full an exploration of this topic as possible. If Apple is going to get into the business of limiting free speech, then this won't happen.

Bravo to Adobe! I was very concerned that Adobe would lead the parade of major software developers adopting Apple's narrow-minded decision. I am greatly relieved to know that Adobe is courageous and progressive and considers how people actually use their software products.

Dennis Burnham wrote:

I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out another change in the history of working on a Mac that is as radical as the change in Saving paradigm introduced in Lion. I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out a change that has resulted in a greater uproar from the Mac community than this one.

I suspect you wanted your answer from one of the defenders of Lion, but I will give you this perspective, using hardware, not software, as an example of radical changes.

When Apple brought out the first iMac, it caused an uproar by the absence of a "floppy" disk drive. Apple's position was that if it's small enough to fit on a diskette, you can email it, and if it's bigger than what fits on a diskette, you should be using CD's. People who had a library of "stuff" (including lots of pre-OS-X installation software that still ran on the first iMac under System 9) had to make some kind of connection to a legacy machine or maybe purchase a USB accessory. But, a major difference between that example and the subject of this thread is that you had the choice of buying an iMac with full knowledge what you were getting into. Not quite the same with the Lion upgrade.

I appreciate your answer, and I anticipated that if anyone ever attempted to answer my question, the elmination of the floppy drive would be the most likely candidate.

In addition to the difference between this situation and the elimination of Save As which you rightly point out, there's more. First, auxillary floppy drives were available for purchase for those who had legacy documents stored on floppies or still needed them for software installation. So that enhanced the choices available to users.

More important, within a relatively short time, a replacement for the floppy disk/drive paradigm — the USB thumb drive — came along that was several orders of magnitude superior to the old technology. Smaller, usable on any computer, and capable of storing way more data. The complaints about removal of the floppy drive dropped to virtually zero in short order.

Similarly, Apple could now make the complaints about the change in Saving functionality diminish to zero by making Auto Save/Versioning the default behavior, but allowing users to disable it in favor of the old paradigm.

Another of my many questions that remains unanswered is why this is a bad idea.

Outstanding news about Adobe's implementation!

The Art Director at our agency uses Illustrator (exlusively, for everything...but that's another discussion!). I was, frankly, worried to death that Adobe would adapt Apple's "my way or the highway" approach to saving, which would have been a complete disaster given the way he works.

At least I know that if the day comes when his hardware must be replaced, he can move to Lion with no worries.

Now if we could only get a similar implementation for iWork apps....

Thanks again, Kurt, for letting us know about this.

Very happy with Adobe right now!

Imagine a huge image in Photoshop, getting saved as versions every time you press Command+S. If you worked on it for many hours the total filesize would end up in many gigabytes! It will get even worse when you are painting in Photoshop.

Lion's version style saving is only good for text documents not images.

Adobe's autosave is their own non-OS-native solution and meant only for post-crash recovery purposes, am I right?

I would presume it's linked to Lion's Autosave function since Adobe has never before even had an autosave feature in Photoshop. I don't recall seeing any kind of autosave in any of their products. If they are there, then I've always turned them off as one of my very first moves after installing, and have just plain forgotten it's there.

I have the CS6 beta installed in Lion, but haven't played with it much yet. I'll have to turn Autosave on using a dummy image and see if I end up with the results you would expect in Lion. That is, your image is saved in its last state whether you pressed Command+S or not; and if there are versions you can revert to, or revert to the previous original state. I'll let you know the results if someone else doesn't do it first.