What happened to Save As?

That's good news Kurt. So now we have Adobe and Lemkesoft who have provided the option to turn autosave off, and we have Realmac and Karelia who are studying it and likely to provide the option if and when they implement the change. Other developers will follow suit in order to keep their users happy.

You can bet that Mac will start to notice the drift away from Numbers and Pages and for certain they are well aware of the issue. In any case there are plenty of options to Numbers and Pages. I don't use either any more, and I got rid of the new (trial) version of Pixelmator because the old one works just fine.

Time will sort this problem out.

DChord, I also am curious to know why they asked Koenig to stop! Perhaps they didn't agree with all the assertions he was making about their policy.

I guess that those who subscribed to this thread received my entire message.

You may send a mail to my mailbox (click my blue name).

I will send you the entire message.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 11 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

markinbali wrote:

Curiouser and curiouser! So what did they edit out? or In?

They edited out a gratuitous, kind of smart-*** personal remark Yvan made at the end of his post. The rest of it was unchanged.

I'm not being at all smug about this; I've been guilty of similar remarks in my own posts, though they were made out of frustration when people refused to address points I had made.

The point is, this sort of thing should not preclude discussion of the substance of this thread, which is why we're all here.

I don't agree that the auto save is for text and not images. Keynote is auto-saving. My Pages documents are auto-saving. Preview files are auto-saving. Even my TextEdit files with images inserted are autosaving.

The way Adobe documents behave and the way Adobe chooses to give its users the SAVE AS option is not so much a reflection of the document content as it is Adobe's realization of the way people work.

This is a critical point in the understanding - and misunderstanding - of this issue.

One might say that working in Adobe's creative suite is more of a "creative process" than working in Apple's iWork suite of applications, but I think Steve Jobs and Phil Schiller would have quickly denied that whenever they did their wonderful demos showing the creativity users can apply to their iWork documents.

In the creative process, we don't necessarily want to save our work until we are ready to do so. Because of the size of certain images, doing so in a program like Photoshop with a large file open can result in a huge waste of storage space. If Apple was thinking clearly, they could have come to the same realization about Keynote and Pages files that contain media, even if Numbers files are strictly alpha-numeric.

Photoshop users are familiar with a command called Duplicate, in which a new window opens with an identical array of pixels, allowing users to edit and design as they wish, and committing the new window's contents to a file stored on disk only when the user desires to do so.

So, if Adobe now realizes that its users might like to benefit from Apple's new technique of auto-saving they have enabled the feature in a way that allows the user to decide. If I am working with a 200mb photograph, I should be the one to decide whether I want numerous auto-saved versions on my hard drive -- or worse yet, on my expensive solid state drive, or do I only want to have saved editions of the ones that I really care about being able to compare. Otherwise, if you have dozens of versions in your timeline and you want to revert to a particular one, how can you differentiate them? Adobe files with layers and channels and delicate color adjustments are not as easy to differentiate as an iWork file which has only 1 layer and and alsmost always containts text that very easily differentiates each auto-saved edition.

Hi:

have not read any of your comments...

Converting my two very simple iwork documents were concerned 1 numbers and one Pages to doc and CSV

not an option. does not work as far as I am concerned...

cheers elo

markinbali wrote:

You've hit on a very important point there - how to differentiate between the different versions in your timeline. That's the main problem I found when experimenting with the new Pixelmator.

This is one of many points I have been making since the start of this thread. It is especially pertinent when working with files that are graphical, not text. I don't know Pixelmator, but I do know Photoshop and Illustrator and I would certainly not upgrade to the next edition of Creative Suite if it began auto-saving my files for me.

It's one thing to have Time Machine making backups every hour of files that are new or changed, but Auto-Save doesn't save things based on changes, it just saves based on the document being open for a period of time. Unless I am mistaken, you can have a Pages document open and idle and it would still be doing version auto-saves. I don't need that kind of wasted space, and it would only complicate my being able to select the one I want to revert to.

Kurt Lang wrote:

So what it looks like what Adobe did was implement its own way to restore a saved state it manages if the app crashes.

It was clear all along though, they'd never be interested in going the AppStore route to sell the Creative Suite.

At the same time, Pixelmator will always do anything Apple asks because this is what gets an app featured.

Dennis Burnham wrote:

It's one thing to have Time Machine making backups every hour of files that are new or changed, but Auto-Save doesn't save things based on changes, it just saves based on the document being open for a period of time. Unless I am mistaken, you can have a Pages document open and idle and it would still be doing version auto-saves. I don't need that kind of wasted space, and it would only complicate my being able to select the one I want to revert to.

Wrong.

It appears that I really wasted my time when I tried to explain the features behaviour.

(1) AutoSave apply only if something is changed and save the entire document.

(2) Versions is designed to save only what is changed.

So, no change means nothing saved.

What is annoying is that even if we change one character, given the badly designed code of iWork applications, it's the entire index.xml which will be saved.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 11 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

It was clear all along though, they'd never be interested in going the AppStore route to sell the Creative Suite.

And I deeply praise them for doing so. They maintain control over how their apps work that way. The only Adobe products in the App Store are the two low end beginner apps; Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements. Both pretty darn good apps for the money.

Thanks for the correction, but ..

Wrong. It appears that I really wasted my time when I tried to explain the features behaviour. (1) AutoSave apply only if something is changed and save the entire document. (2) Versions is designed to save only what is changed.

I find this confusing. If Versions is designed to save only what is changed, are you saying that it saves the new content to the same copy of the previously saved file, and if so, which "edition" is the one that gets re-saved. At what point does it begin making new, additional editions of the same document. And how exactly do you define Auto Save to be different than Versions. I thought that in Lion they are synonymous.

Given that I am not a neophyte about this, and considering that I still apparently have more to learn, I am even more convinced that the impact on workgroups is substantial because most people don't look under the hood. They just use their computer and go o with their life.

Dennis Burnham wrote:

If Versions is designed to save only what is changed, are you saying that it saves the new content to the same copy of the previously saved file, and if so, which "edition" is the one that gets re-saved.

Yes I think it uses the same file, all versions are saved in that one file. If you take it to another computer you will have all the versions that way, it makes sense that way. Ultimately a file with one word type in it could use megabytes of space if you had a lot of text in it previously and changed it around a lot. May want to do an experiment on it.

Kurt Lang wrote:

I thought all versions were saved only on the local computer? If you copy the file to another computer, or removable device, that copy has all versions stripped.

Well then that s-ucks even harder.

Hi:

read the other discussion issues see yvan's link to other thread) and will repeat my comments from there..

It is sad that something that what used to be so simple now needs an wanabee technocrat to explain to all of us how to to live with a system that we have become used to for the past twenty years. And!!! even the wannabe seems to get confused and forget how the new world works....

something has gone terribly wrong with the world of apple. It is almost as if we are back in the dark ages of the late eighties and early nineties.

apple used to be intuitive and simple to use.....

come on tim. lets get back to basics.....

Yep, just do as you're told. Submit and conform. Thats what Apple wants from us anyway, and they are not going to change. Trust OS X to at least not lose your work and use Duplicate > Save as a workaround for Save-As. Then move on with your life. These discussions obviously don't help to change or improve anything.

samhaque wrote:

These discussions obviously don't help to change or improve anything.

It's what I wrote since the beginning.

The system's behaviour is changed and it will not move back.

The only difference is that you think that these changes are bad and that Apple engineers and some users like me think that they are good.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 11 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k