What happened to Save As?

I think we should continue to voice our opposition to this change that Apple has made. Apple is a company and relies on its customers to stay in business. Look around the world, companies do respond to what their customers say. Just because someone like Yvan says Apple will never change this, and they have not announced any plans to change it yet, does not mean we should shut up.

Apple can be responsive and it is a good thing for customers to let Apple know what they want, over and over again.

BRING BACK SAVE AS...

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

samhaque wrote:

These discussions obviously don't help to change or improve anything.

The only difference is that you think that these changes are bad and that Apple engineers and some users like me think that they are good.

Actually I hated it at first, but realised Save-As is still there in a round about way. So I'm ok with it as long as I don't lose my work. I just think removal of the actual "Save As" item from the menu was a dumb thing to do. Because now we have to first duplicate then save to acheive save-as.

All,

This is early and possibly unreliable but I did call Apple Customer Service to discuss this and another issue. I have to say I felt badly for the poor tech on the other end of the line. He has heard the "Save As" complaint many, many times. He says Apple does realize we are not happy and there is a possible compromise on the way.

Again, this is early info - and this may not happen at all - but it was gratifying to hear that we are being heard. Next, wait for the results...we will see but I am more hopeful than I have been that some kind of compromise is in the works.

I think Apple won't read these discussions and won't listen to disappointed users.

They have become too arrogant. Luckily they are not the only phone-computer-software producer in the world.

As I previously said, I am moving back to Linux where I do whatever I do with Mac (and where I am FREE to customize whatever I want). I also bought an Android phone and it has nothing less than the iPhone (except the retina display, but... it's phone, not a giant screen TV).

I would suggest stopping complaining here, send a feedback to Apple and move to other products that today are better, for one reason or another.

Hi elo here

trust me. Apple does at times read these discussions. I know they read one of my last posts.

keep the pressure it up. But do not infringe on any

"Discussion of Apple Policies, Procedures or Decisions

Off-topic or non-technical posts" Keep it to the technical issues.......

And I do agree with them or this will become a free for all.

This why I apologized in my second post seconds later before they obviously read my post. I knew after hitting enter that I had stepped over the line.

cheers elo

I am delighted to learn that Apple is watching this thread. Perhaps while moderating certain content, the point we have all been making is also getting through to them.

Although there has certainly been some over-the-line commentary by some, it has not been so offensive as to require censorship. Of course, I can't go back and read what has been deleted. I agree we should stick to the technical issues because it will make it much easier for Apple engineers to understand the points being made on either side of this discussion.

The closer we get to the release of Mountain Lion, the more important this becomes. if they are serious about making the software user friendly and giving the customer as many options as possible, I hope they will see the sense of restoring SAVE AS for those who want it, without denying anybody the ability to jump into the new auto-saved Versions if they want that too.

As strong as my opinion has been about the need for SAVE AS, I have not said that I would never use or benefit from the newer method in certain situations. Some documents benefit from it, others don't.

I always make this wager when I am really confident but willing to lose the bet: I'll bet on the life of my ex wife that every participant in this thread would be satisfied and silent if we had CHOICE.

Dennis Burnham wrote:

..giving the customer as many options as possible..

Apple doesn't do that.

Also, why are you people so scared of saying something wrong in here suddenly? They're not going to come knocking on your door and take your Macs away.

Stefano,

Linux - good, Android - good, I have an android phone myself, but the main reason to own a Mac is to use Mac software, and OS 10, the best operating system so far for personal computing, and the easiest for the average layman to install and use.

This thread is about one issue, the disappearance of Save as... , which unfortunately has made OS 10 a little less user friendly than it was before.

Sure users will move to products which suit them better, if they can afford to abandon existing hardware and software, but personally I do not see any system that betters OS 10 at present, even with the recent changes. But then again, who can foresee the future. Google AndroidChrome for Desktop, for example, is on the horizon!

We like to assume that Apple, with the culture instilled by Steve Jobs, can not only predict the future but create it, and therefore we assume that the changes in Lion are all part of an impending huge leap forward which once again will place them way ahead of the rest of the field. This might well be the case, but do not assume that they are not, at the same time, monitoring user satisfaction.

The Black Hand Gang are adamant that Apple will not change their master plan - of course they won't, but there is nothing to stop them tweaking it a bit here and there, for example, by providing a Save as... option in preferences.

Time will tell.

Mark,

I'd be happy to continue using Mac. But after almost one year since Lion's release we still have mandatory autosave/version/dupicate crap for Apple's applications.

I am afraid they will never provide choice.

So I am movin toward another direction and I am happy.

I may get back one day or another. For sure I expect my computer to behave differently than a phone.

Sam,

It depends on what applications you use, and also whether you like to work in a simple and logical way where you know exactly where your files are and what's happening to them instead of blindly trusting the system. If you work with large graphics files it really is a pain. I always make a duplicate of the entire directory of files I want to work on before I start so I'm safe. What could be simpler than that? I can see an advantage in having autosave but it should be an option. As for the rest of it - the duplicate and save, and the save a version routine - I still can not see the point. The only purpose it seems to serve is to satisfy the software engineers' desire to create mystique! Stefano's view of it as "crap" is shared by many. Others have described it as "bloatware". I like Dennis's description best - a classic "ain't broke don't fixit" example.

My own workaraund is just to avoid using apps that have the new feature, and for that reason I junked the new version of Pixelmator. I am now thinking of switching from Pixelmator to Photoshop since they have provided the option we are asking for.

I do respect Stefano's decision, and to tell the truth, I have postponed my purchase of a new Macbook Pro until Apple's direction becomes more clear. My instinct tells me that Apple might resolve our problem in some unexpected way and so I am prepared to wait and see.

Stefano, how easy is it to install Linux?

Mark,

I agree with most of it. I came to this thread at first because I wasn't happy. But I'm pretty used to it now. I don't miss it.

This is how I'm seeing this: as always, Apple is getting ready for the future before everyone else. This iOS style autosaving and version saving is going to be very useful when everyone has SSDs instead of HDDs. Currently every OS access HDD as seldom as possible, because constantly accessing HDDs is unhealthy for it in all sorts of ways. With SSDs, I don't think that is an issue. So this autosave and versions will only give you more options for reverting back to a previous state.

Another point is, as someone said earlier, image files and documents don't get large because of this. Versions are not saved with the file. Maybe Lion takes up some extra space because of the versions saved but I'm sure it won't be something problematic on a 500+ GB drives Macs come with today.

Companies like Adobe probably won't part with the traditional ways that easily.

I just think that moving away from OS X because of this is going to be a huge hassle! There are all sorts of weird annoying issues with all other OSes. Windows 7 is pretty stable but still it drove me nuts enough to finally switch to Mac 2 months ago. Linux is good but definitely not as good as OS X. Since you are asking how easy it is to install Linux, I assume you have not used it much or not at all. In that case you will probably be miserable for months until you have everything figured out and have all the apps there working as you need them to.

Just my 2 cents on the troubles of leaving OS X.

Hello Samhaque

save as is only one of the "features" that are making my workflows less smooth.

Autosave/Versions/Duplicate is enough to stop using iWorks and moving to sth else for office (not for the OS itself of course).

I personally dislike the direction Apple took since Lion. I believe a computer should be different from a phone. Have you seen the ML preview? Isn't it embarassing to define Notes, Messages and Reminders as "OS innovation"?

Isn't it stupid to emphasize Air Mirroring (with a 100$ Apple TV) when you can do the same with a 5$ HDMI cable?

Add to this the fact that MobileMe worked perfectly for years and I was never able to make iCloud work without losing part of my contacts and the picture is clear: Apple is going its direction. Fair enough. For me it doesn't work, so it is time to change.

As I said, I may come back.

Mark, of course MacOS is easier than Linux in installation and configuration.

On the other hand in Lx you can configure every little thing of the OS (e.g., if you don't like the new version of the GUI you can use the old GUI in the latest kernel).

I would suggest to install VirtualBox (free) and on top of that a Linux distro (IMHO Ubuntu is the easiest to start, Fedora is fine, avoid Gentoo or Debian at the beginning). Give it a try, but if you are happy with OSX stay with it.

Just a final note to Autosave/Versions: i define "crap" the way it is implemented, not the concept behind it.

CVS is available since the beginning of the '90s and the concept is great.

I use versioning control since 1998 and it is great. The big problem with Apple implementation is that the OS decides when to save a new version, not the user. This causes 2 kinds of problems:

1. the system can save changer user did NOT want to save (most of the complaining people noticed this)

2. saving a new version every 5 minutes makes a LOT of versions in which is very hard to find the "good" one

Real versioning systems work this way:

1. User can save local files as usual (old autosave can be used here for recovery purposes).

2. When user wants to save a new version he explicitly "commits" the file (with an associated comment - e.g. "presentation flow revised for management")

3. When needed to roll back to a previous version, insead of the star wars interface user sees the comments describing the changes in the various versions and can retrieve a specific file (even without replacing the current one)

This process worked well for over 20 years and demonstrated to be efficient.

Does anybody work on a 300 MB Keynote file for 5 days? How many versions are there of the file? Can you find the right version in the star wars screen when you need it?

If Apple implemented sth like this (Save, Save As, Save/Commit a version, NEVER save a version automatically) it would be perfect.

Happy week-end to everybody

S.

Hi:

My past job (the dark ages) meant that I (and staff) had to acquire software and hardware for many users (thousands ) (IBM mainframe and PC's). Our development users (in the dark ages) also had a Versions and Auto Backup (daily not continuous all the time) made available to them with recovery available by next day. But they could decide what/when to use it themselves, and still go on as they wanted.

A full evaluation of software was done based on USERS needs first. We looked at many things and if a product did not offer backup protection, the right features, etc then why buy it/ why use it? If we had to use it for technical reasons(limit its use)

In the world of apple there are basically two types of program products. 1. Apple platform only products and 2. cross platform products.

I do not see the cross platform products converting to the new version system without an opt-in/out as the Windows/Linux general users would not accept it nor would all the industrial software users running on windows/linux.

Therefore what I have now done is look at my workflow and selected the products that meet my needs with minimum pain.

ei. I use Photoshop(PSE)(no versions), not pixelmator

I will use Microsoft Office/NeoOffice (Versions opt-out/in included) instead of Pages and Numbers

I would use any web builder product instead of Sandvox. at the moment I use Freway Pro

I for one will miss Pages' "Page Layout Capabilities" I have moved to Bean for word processing

Nothing beats Bento for ease of use.

Look at each tool and function you use... then choose a tool that suits you

there are plenty of alternatives out there. Not all as beautiful as Pages and Numbers. But they all get the job done.

Stay with OSX and use the products etc that brought you there in the first place.

I believe very few users moved to Apple to use pages and numbers. Large businesses do not use the two products, not compatible enough with the world at large.

So while I am concerned about apple's path at the moment and apparent lack of consideration for those of us who find Versions unusable, I will continue to use the OX system for other reasons.

It should be noted that Graphic Converter is no longer on the app stores' "App enhanced for OSX Lion list" but still available to purchase

finally Preview "what a fantastic piece of software nothing beats it ( like a "Swiss Army Knife" does everything just like Graphic Converter (only on apple) hmmmm maybe I have found an alternative to use....)

I however will not move to Windows.. I see too many users suffer especially the consumer users as they do not know how to use the software....??????

I hope apple will offer us an alternative soon or a slightly less intrusive Version system that will let me select my own level of backup)

every environment has its own downside....

cheers elo

elol wrote:

It should be noted that Graphic Converter is no longer on the app stores' "App enhanced for OSX Lion list" but still available to purchase

Normal, I asked Apple to check if it's really matching the rules which it doesn't.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) samedi 14 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k